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keysersoze311 · (This post was last modified: 2009-11-30 18:44 by keysersoze311.)

OK I know I might be running way ahead of myself here, but assuming Hi-Rez downloads become popular one day, and we can download the files in a split second because the internet will be fast enough, is it not conceivable that the agreed high resolution formats might go above 24bit/192khz?

Some 32 bit material etc. might even be released quite soon, might it not?... Sort of like how only a very small amount of 24 bit material is currently available...

In response to another thread I started, someone mentioned that 32bit/384kbps had been suggested as a digital format that would potentially be on par with analogue/vinyl..

At the moment, it's impossible to find almost any music at anything above 16bit/44.1khz, but it seems the world is increasingly heading towards music downloads, and when the internet gets fast enough, and our hard drives get big enough, if Hi-Rez downloads do take off, is it quite likely they'll go above 24bit/192khz?

Cos if so, will this render our DS systems redundant? Or would a simple upgrade enable them to handle High(er)-Rez material?

OK in practice if you buy a DS tomorrow you're probably pretty much future proofed, because it'll probably be years (if ever) before you can find a lot of music at 24bit/192khz, let alone higher..

But still, would this be a simple upgrade, or is the Linn DS really designed to handle a maximum of 24bit/192khz material??

It's source first after all, and the real source is the music, followed by the DS/turntable..

Even if, say 32bit/384khz material doesn't become popular, if they start releasing some music in this format in the near future, I bet a lot of DS owners are gonna be pretty annoyed they can't enjoy that music in it's native super Hi-Rez...

Even if the 32bit/384khz material is only as common as today's 24 bit material (very uncommon), we're gonna have a lot of grumpy DS owners who can't enjoy the rare 32 bit material as intended...

Cheers, Keyser

billzab · 2009-11-30, 20:19

Interesting question, Keyser.

I actually think our future problems could be going in the other direction. If the news of the imminent death of the CD is to be believed, and itunes and other download sites continue with lossy formats, we could end up struggling to find new music in current CD quality. No mainstream record label is making downloads available in FLAC (or any lossless format) at the moment and apparently no intentions of doing so in the near future. This is due to current constraints on broadband band widths. So if they stop releasing CD's then we are all up that well known creek with out a paddle.

The record company have already split the mainstream music buying public in to two groups, dowloaders (the youngsters) and CD buyers (the oldies). Not too far down the line, new music by so called young bands, will not even be released on CD. If (when) this happens, there will be no other way to get a CD or FLAC quality copy of the music unless a pirate copy of the master recording hits the torrent sites. The record companies need to wake up to the needs of audiophiles, but as we are in a minority, they will probably ignore us.

I think the days of split second downloads for large files are a long way off, especially here in the UK. I get my broadband down the same piece of copper wire strung out across my back yard that was there when I moved into my house 23 years ago.

So to sum up, I think we should be worrying about how we are going to get new music of the same quality we currently have, to our DS's, not that they may go out of date!

Cheers, Bill.

Warren · 2009-11-30, 20:29

As I may completely misunderstand it...

the 24/192 limit is set by the first open format Linn supported, FLAC.

the DSs (or some of them) upscale to a higher resolution internally.

32 bits is used the studios and the 32 bits are 24 bit + 8 bit exponent, so basically still 24 bit recordings with a 8 bit gain/volume setting to preserve quality during the recording/mixing process.

Briain · (This post was last modified: 2009-11-30 20:49 by Briain.)

I agree with Bill; this is a genuine concern. The other thing is that some of the CD releases are compressed too much for comfort; some of them might as well just be in MP3 format! It looks like sections of the music industry assume the world revolves round iPods and the like.

Bri

keysersoze311 · (This post was last modified: 2009-12-01 00:04 by keysersoze311.)

(2009-11-30 20:19)billzab Wrote: Interesting question, Keyser.

I actually think our future problems could be going in the other direction. If the news of the imminent death of the CD is to be believed, and itunes and other download sites continue with lossy formats, we could end up struggling to find new music in current CD quality. No mainstream record label is making downloads available in FLAC (or any lossless format) at the moment and apparently no intentions of doing so in the near future. This is due to current constraints on broadband band widths. So if they stop releasing CD's then we are all up that well known creek with out a paddle.

The record company have already split the mainstream music buying public in to two groups, dowloaders (the youngsters) and CD buyers (the oldies). Not too far down the line, new music by so called young bands, will not even be released on CD. If (when) this happens, there will be no other way to get a CD or FLAC quality copy of the music unless a pirate copy of the master recording hits the torrent sites. The record companies need to wake up to the needs of audiophiles, but as we are in a minority, they will probably ignore us.

I think the days of split second downloads for large files are a long way off, especially here in the UK. I get my broadband down the same piece of copper wire strung out across my back yard that was there when I moved into my house 23 years ago.

So to sum up, I think we should be worrying about how we are going to get new music of the same quality we currently have, to our DS's, not that they may go out of date!

Cheers, Bill.

Definitely a very, very, valid point Bill, but I think (hope!), for a relatively decent while yet, we'll be able to buy most albums on physical CDs... Linn is going on about "the death of the CD player", not the "death of CDs", and for anyone with a DS, surely 95%+ of their music (probably 99%+ in a lot of cases) is still FLACs ripped from physical CDs...

But yeah, if music does eventually go the route of internet downloads pretty much exclusively, I totally agree, it may be that MP3s and other lossy files are the common format for a long while yet... It may prove very difficult to download FLAC files from places like iTunes, let alone Higher-Rez material..

But as I say, I think most albums will be released as physical CDs for a while yet... Certainly for long enough to justify me getting a DS anyway..

Hopefully by the time CDs start to die out (and I'm sure, as you suggest, they will die out eventually), internet will be fast enough, and storage great enough, that offering lossless (and even Higher-Rez material) isn't an issue for the record labels. But I doubt there will be a demand for anything above 320kbps MP3 fles from the general public, so we'll just have to hope that technology truly does evolve enough that it really isn't an issue to offer much higher bitrate music files... Fingers crossed...

I don't know as I've never done any blind testing through a top notch system, but it is often said that 320kbps MP3 files are indistinguishable from CD quality files anyway, even some audiophiles have (often reluctantly) agreed with this... However there are many who dispute this, and I don't want to get into an argument about that Wink

I've no idea how long it is before we can potentially get instant FLAC downloads, but certainly I would hope that 10 years of future broadband evolution could get us there... And I reckon you'll be able to find pretty much any album you want on CD for that long too..

I hope, that is!

We shall see...

Defender · (This post was last modified: 2009-11-30 21:13 by Defender.)

there are only a few mostly small recording studios/lables out there fighting for high end audio quality but I have seen them also moving ahead down the loudness- and compress- war.
Most of them do not like to sell the music as electronic file because that would mean to give one unique selling point away (there will be always one nice guy to spread this file over torrent sites) ... so I agree with billzab ... we might have problems to really get the quality we want.

If there is another high resolution format - fine with me but at first this format has to show me a benefit (in this case higher audio quality). Usually you find only the "old" recordings polished for a new format like I have seen with 80% of the SACD´s out there.

If Linn would be able to engage more high quality labels to release their records at Linn records as Studio Master Quality I would be happy enough.

If some of the Linn guys is reading this: please get in touch with Stockfisch Records in Germany
(http://www.stockfisch-records.de) and try to get Günter Pauler convinced about selling his Studio Master files at Linn Records. He is taking high resolution really serious and he is one of the few actually recording DIRECT-CUT-SACD´s. If you don´t do it that way you end up transfering the DSD to PCM somthere in the chain.
This label completely changed my music taste! If you would like to have a good overview buy the STOCKFISCH-RECORDS - closer to the music Vol.1 but let us friends agree to the following: ask him if he would sell the files also as a Studio Master download. The more people ask the more he might get the idea.

To summ up: I dont care if there is "another" 64bit/1411.2kHz format out there if we are not able to use the capabilities of the formats we have right now. And if we are able would it make current Studio Master files sounding real bad?

Warren · 2009-11-30, 21:27

If this was a concern, then there is a solution.

Linn do an upgrade.

New players automatically can play the higher resolution formats.

Old DS players can be upgraded, if there owners really are into that level of quality.

Consider the Klimax Kontrol upgrade to dual mono design (complete with other refinements), for about a quarter of what the product cost, the major circuit boards were replaced.

jkno · 2009-11-30, 22:41

Quote:I don't know as I've never done any blind testing through a top notch system, but it is often said that 320kbps MP3 files are indistinguishable from CD quality files anyway, even some audiophiles have (often reluctantly) agreed with this... However there are many who dispute this, and I don't want to get into an argument about that

I used to think this but last week i purchased my Linn Majik Ds which I spent about 2-3 hours listening to on:
Klimax Kontrol
Klimax 350A
with both the Klimax and Majik DS.

Whilst I was at the store I listened to a classical piece in: MP3 320, 16bit 44.1khz FLAC and 192khz 24bit FLAC and you can definitely tell the difference. It's not always noticeable sound difference but the overall ambiance/feel of the music the low and high range always feels/sounds more defined. I have also noticed the same on my setup (Roksan Kandy K2, Bowers and Wilkins CM5's and Linn Majik DS) between FLAC/ALAC and 320 MP3.

I hope that it would be possible to upgrade whether via software or hardware if 32bit does become an option just so we can experience the sound.

plug 65 · 2009-12-01, 00:13

(2009-11-30 18:08)keysersoze311 Wrote: OK I know I might be running way ahead of myself here, but assuming Hi-Rez downloads become popular one day, and we can download the files in a split second because the internet will be fast enough, is it not conceivable that the agreed high resolution formats might go above 24bit/192khz?

Some 32 bit material etc. might even be released quite soon, might it not?... Sort of like how only a very small amount of 24 bit material is currently available...

In response to another thread I started, someone mentioned that 32bit/384kbps had been suggested as a digital format that would potentially be on par with analogue/vinyl..

At the moment, it's impossible to find almost any music at anything above 16bit/44.1khz, but it seems the world is increasingly heading towards music downloads, and when the internet gets fast enough, and our hard drives get big enough, if Hi-Rez downloads do take off, is it quite likely they'll go above 24bit/192khz?

Cos if so, will this render our DS systems redundant? Or would a simple upgrade enable them to handle High(er)-Rez material?

OK in practice if you buy a DS tomorrow you're probably pretty much future proofed, because it'll probably be years (if ever) before you can find a lot of music at 24bit/192khz, let alone higher..

But still, would this be a simple upgrade, or is the Linn DS really designed to handle a maximum of 24bit/192khz material??

It's source first after all, and the real source is the music, followed by the DS/turntable..

Even if, say 32bit/384khz material doesn't become popular, if they start releasing some music in this format in the near future, I bet a lot of DS owners are gonna be pretty annoyed they can't enjoy that music in it's native super Hi-Rez...

Even if the 32bit/384khz material is only as common as today's 24 bit material (very uncommon), we're gonna have a lot of grumpy DS owners who can't enjoy the rare 32 bit material as intended...

Cheers, Keyser

good questions, I have no idea, but i bloody hope the ads could be upgraded, we all know linn do perform miracles, so hopefully it would mean just new firmware?, however i would hope the ds is future proof for a while yet, if the bit rate did change would that mean ripping all my albums again or similar aggro? lifes too short.

plug 65

keysersoze311 · (This post was last modified: 2009-12-01 00:30 by keysersoze311.)

(2009-11-30 21:10)Defender Wrote: Most of them do not like to sell the music as electronic file because that would mean to give one unique selling point away (there will be always one nice guy to spread this file over torrent sites) ... so I agree with billzab ... we might have problems to really get the quality we want.

Hey man, even if it's sold as CD, it's still easy enough to rip that CD and share it over torrent, so not sure I follow the logic there? (Unless it's something to do with DRM on CDs, but as far as I know, virtually any CD can be easily copied to a hard drive then shared over torrent?)

(2009-11-30 21:10)Defender Wrote: To summ up: I dont care if there is "another" 64bit/1411.2kHz format out there if we are not able to use the capabilities of the formats we have right now. And if we are able would it make current Studio Master files sounding real bad?

No, of course it wouldn't make current Studio Master files sound "bad"... But they might not sound "as good" as the super Hi-Rez formats... And if I'm spending thousands of pounds of audio equipment, it would kind of suck to find out that I could have got much better sound quality if I'd waited.... Sure, my Klimax DS system might sound awesome with 24bit/192khz material, but if 2 years down the road, a £1k Sneaky DS that supports "64bit/1411.2khz" material comes out, and sounds massively better than my £10k Klimax DS, I would feel pretty gutted! The potential jump in sound quality could be very significant if Hi-Rez source recordings start coming out - a potentially much bigger jump in sound quality than we have seen in recent years with CD players trying to improve the redbook 16bit/44.1khz standard..

(2009-12-01 00:13)plug 65 Wrote: however i would hope the ds is future proof for a while yet, if the bit rate did change would that mean ripping all my albums again or similar aggro? lifes too short.

plug 65

Hey plug, no I don't think so.. Your CD albums would still be the 16bit/44.1khz redbook CD standard, so no need to re-rip them... You have already extracted all of their sound quality when you ripped them to the hard drive...

This super Hi-Rez stuff would have to be direct music downloads from the internet (eg Linn's store), or a different audio disc format, like SACD or something new...

CDs are CDs, they are only 16bit/44.1khz, and I have been told they still sound bloody good through the DS players!

(2009-11-30 21:27)Warren Wrote: If this was a concern, then there is a solution.

Linn do an upgrade.

New players automatically can play the higher resolution formats.

Old DS players can be upgraded, if there owners really are into that level of quality.

Consider the Klimax Kontrol upgrade to dual mono design (complete with other refinements), for about a quarter of what the product cost, the major circuit boards were replaced.

Thanks Warren.. Does this imply the DS could be upgraded to support virtually any bitrate Hi-Rez material? eg be it 32bit/384khz, or be it 64bit/768khz, or even higher, whatever (if anything) becomes the standard, it would make absolutely no difference?

Basically, does the DS have the ability to handle any resolution of audio files? In other words, there is no real limit to what it could handle with an upgrade? The resolution would be kinda irrelevant, and "the other" components in the DS have not been custom made to excel with lower-rez material like CDs and current 24 bit material?

Thanks, Keyser Wink