Two great machines: Linn KDS vs Devialet

[MakikWAM]

It will give setup 3 nothing as Air circumvents any use of audirvana

[Szuszi]

(2012-03-01 16:19)Lefreck Wrote:  What about connecting an ADS/1 digitally to the Devialet? Nobody tried that yet?

I tried that briefly with an ADS/2 but the ADS is a really expensive piece if only used as an interface as makikWAMM mentioned.

My brief impression was it's no match to connecting the Devialet via AES and Weiss INT directly to the Mac.

---

(2012-03-01 22:14)MakikWAM Wrote:  It will give setup 3 nothing as Air circumvents any use of audirvana

I agree. I don't know audirvana but don't see any sense in software-upsampling by my Mac if a dedicated software-upsampler will do the same inside the Devialet.

Above all, at present AIR accepts only red book resolution.

[broadcaster]

There is a wifi streaming option for Devialet, called Air, free of charge. I had a chance to compare a dual mono Devialet set (using two Devialet D-Premier amps configured to mono each) with the wifi streaming option to a KDS and Accuphase (C3800 pre, M6000 dual mono power) amplification to Focal Stella Utopia, and the Devialet setup was more detailed, more fluid definitely more enjoyable for me, of course YMMV. Only 44k files were used for the comparison, as this is a limitation of the Devialet streaming at the moment should be upgrade soon to high-res streaming. Source was Mac Mini, running Devialet streaming app and Minim Server for UPnP duties. The whole comparison took some 3 hours. Both system were very much enjoyable, really top, but I liked the Devialet a bit more.

[Szuszi]

Broadcaster: you mean you streamed wirelessly from the mini to the Devialet and fed the KDS digitally?

I prefer my (single, not dual mono) Devialet also with my efficient speakers after all initial comparisons I made with tubes amps and McIntoshes and KDS, ADS, etc. Because of my mixed itunes library comprising red book and hirez material, I feed the Premier by AES instead of AIR. Look forward, though, to its hirez AIR streaming.

[broadcaster]

(2012-03-04 16:05)Szuszi Wrote:  Broadcaster: you mean you streamed wirelessly from the mini to the Devialet and fed the KDS digitally?

The KDS was streaming through Ethernet and UPnP from Minim Server, so digitally if you ment digital this way. I really like Devialet's free of charge way of streaming, not using an UPnP server and not using the Audio subsystem at all on he computer. They do not handle any album cover info, and most of the metadata is completely meaningless, as remote controlling, album cover visualisation is provided by iTunes and Apple 's remote app, totally independent of audio data streaming. So technically speaking it is the purest way of doing audio DATA streaming. As I understood this way and others solution.

[Briain]

(2012-03-01 20:05)MakikWAM Wrote:  I am sure it would sound great but why would you drop 4k on a Ethernet to spdif switch? You get a free asynchronous wifi streamer built into devialet. If you want to do the former, a squeezebox touch will do it bit perfect for £135 on amazon (if you wait for their offers)

Hi

Out of interest, when I experimented (a few years back) with a Logitech Duet hooked up (via S/PDIF) to a decent D/A, I was very surprised to find that an old Karik CD player (also fed into the same D/A) sounded miles better (playing the same album). Bearing that in mind, I cannot agree with the above implication that it doesn't matter what you use for the Ethernet to S/PDIF part of the setup; there's a bit more to it than that!

Bri

[chimar]

(2012-03-04 23:07)Briain Wrote:  

(2012-03-01 20:05)MakikWAM Wrote:  I am sure it would sound great but why would you drop 4k on a Ethernet to spdif switch? You get a free asynchronous wifi streamer built into devialet. If you want to do the former, a squeezebox touch will do it bit perfect for £135 on amazon (if you wait for their offers)

Hi

Out of interest, when I experimented (a few years back) with a Logitech Duet hooked up (via S/PDIF) to a decent D/A, I was very surprised to find that an old Karik CD player (also fed into the same D/A) sounded miles better (playing the same album). Bearing that in mind, I cannot agree with the above implication that it doesn't matter what you use for the Ethernet to S/PDIF part of the setup; there's a bit more to it than that!

Bri

Was it ripped using dBpoweramp and Lossless?

Not sure these days its Ethernet to SDPIF... Is it not more a question of USB or Ethernet?

I'm trying to get to the truth on this one... (Why did Linn NOT put a USB in - totally get the HDMI!?)

[Briain]

(2012-03-04 23:17)chimar Wrote:  Was it ripped using dBpoweramp and Lossless?

Not sure these days its Ethernet to SDPIF... Is it not more a question of USB or Ethernet?

I'm trying to get to the truth on this one... (Why did Linn NOT put a USB in - totally get the HDMI!?)

Hi Chimar

It was done back in the EAC days, so yes, the disk was ripped correctly. I'm not an expert in what impacts on the sound at all stages within a DS (my digital audio experiences are from commissioning and repairing the first generation 30 channel PCM systems used in telephone networks; that's going back a but and whilst we looked at levels and QD, Hi-Fi sound quality wasn't exactly a parameter we spent much time thinking about)!

My guess is that some areas where there might be issues are with the clock stability/noise (in the Squeezebox) and also that the following D/A box relies on extracting timing from the S/PDIF stream (likely an oscillator PLL'd onto the incoming stream). As I say, that's not my area of expertise, so you'd really have to ask someone from Linn Design (Murray would be the best one to ask) as to the areas where the process can go wrong. My guess would be that to do it properly, you might have to design the D/A box to capture and buffer the incoming data from the S/PDIF stream and then clock it out (using a very high quality clock), but that would give a delay (so there would be lip-sync issues if using it for an AV system) and there's also the issue that you'd have to loosely track the incoming S/PDIF stream (as there would be no way to request chunks of data if the buffer emptied). So if that is the area that results in the system sounding poor, there isn't really a viable solution to the problem (other than buying a DS player to do it properly).

As I say, please note my caveat in that I have not looked into that area of digital audio (so there could be other areas where it all goes a bit 'Pete Tong') and thus I am not the person to ask!

Bri

PS Though I used to use AES/EBU (and a word clock) when doing my HDD recordings of vinyl (so I've a rough idea what's going on with S/PDIF), I've not at all looked into USB interfaces and thus can't comment on how the work (or maybe don't work); maybe others on this forum (or Linn Design) can comment on the viability (or not) of using USB as an interface in a Hi-Fi environment. Personally, I've just let Linn Design sort it all out and bought a DS!

PS2 I'd have thought that it might be worth trying a Sneaky DS into the Devialet box; it has both Toslink and S/PDIF outputs and the stages up to the S/PDIF will be similar to an Akurate DS.

[MakikWAM]

(2012-03-04 23:07)Briain Wrote:  

(2012-03-01 20:05)MakikWAM Wrote:  I am sure it would sound great but why would you drop 4k on a Ethernet to spdif switch? You get a free asynchronous wifi streamer built into devialet. If you want to do the former, a squeezebox touch will do it bit perfect for £135 on amazon (if you wait for their offers)

Hi

Out of interest, when I experimented (a few years back) with a Logitech Duet hooked up (via S/PDIF) to a decent D/A, I was very surprised to find that an old Karik CD player (also fed into the same D/A) sounded miles better (playing the same album). Bearing that in mind, I cannot agree with the above implication that it doesn't matter what you use for the Ethernet to S/PDIF part of the setup; there's a bit more to it than that!

Bri

Hi Bri,

I have not seen the data for the Duet so can not ratify whether it passes bit perfect or not. This can be proved with the touch via the Weiss Dac for example. In terms of cd player transport - when you think about it, the chances of errors over spdif are higher than from a hard disc ripped flac and verified by accurate rip into an internal buffer.
You could argue that the spdif implementation could have an effect and the touch spdif lacks galvanic isolation thus possibly transferring noise. If you find a better Ethernet to spdif solution with data to substantiate it, please let me know as I would be interested in trying it!
What other "bit" do you think there is? Maybe a linear power supply?

[MakikWAM]

(2012-03-05 14:09)Briain Wrote:  

(2012-03-04 23:17)chimar Wrote:  Was it ripped using dBpoweramp and Lossless?

Not sure these days its Ethernet to SDPIF... Is it not more a question of USB or Ethernet?

I'm trying to get to the truth on this one... (Why did Linn NOT put a USB in - totally get the HDMI!?)

Hi Chimar

It was done back in the EAC days, so yes, the disk was ripped correctly. I'm not an expert in what impacts on the sound at all stages within a DS (my digital audio experiences are from commissioning and repairing the first generation 30 channel PCM systems used in telephone networks; that's going back a but and whilst we looked at levels and QD, Hi-Fi sound quality wasn't exactly a parameter we spent much time thinking about)!

My guess is that some areas where there might be issues are with the clock stability/noise (in the Squeezebox) and also that the following D/A box relies on extracting timing from the S/PDIF stream (likely an oscillator PLL'd onto the incoming stream). As I say, that's not my area of expertise, so you'd really have to ask someone from Linn Design (Murray would be the best one to ask) as to the areas where the process can go wrong. My guess would be that to do it properly, you might have to design the D/A box to capture and buffer the incoming data from the S/PDIF stream and then clock it out (using a very high quality clock), but that would give a delay (so there would be lip-sync issues if using it for an AV system) and there's also the issue that you'd have to loosely track the incoming S/PDIF stream (as there would be no way to request chunks of data if the buffer emptied). So if that is the area that results in the system sounding poor, there isn't really a viable solution to the problem (other than buying a DS player to do it properly).

As I say, please note my caveat in that I have not looked into that area of digital audio (so there could be other areas where it all goes a bit 'Pete Tong') and thus I am not the person to ask!

Bri

PS Though I used to use AES/EBU (and a word clock) when doing my HDD recordings of vinyl (so I've a rough idea what's going on with S/PDIF), I've not at all looked into USB interfaces and thus can't comment on how the work (or maybe don't work); maybe others on this forum (or Linn Design) can comment on the viability (or not) of using USB as an interface in a Hi-Fi environment. Personally, I've just let Linn Design sort it all out and bought a DS!

PS2 I'd have thought that it might be worth trying a Sneaky DS into the Devialet box; it has both Toslink and S/PDIF outputs and the stages up to the S/PDIF will be similar to an Akurate DS.

I thought I read on this site that the majik ds would be better than sneaky at transfer over spdif. However I am not sure that the DS players are optimum fr this task as I read somewhere that the jitter levels are quite high over spdif but perhaps linn could comment as i assume it has been measured.