24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense

[VicJayL]

(2012-04-22 18:42)Delboy Wrote:  ... Similarly in this debate there is an assumption that high resolution files must be audibly better and experimental evidence from publications by Milind Kunchur that support this. However, in the only published study where this was tested, subjects could not tell the difference, and this has been supported to some extent by data from Vic, Pete and interestingly, depending on whose argument you accept, a trial by Linn themselves. None of this, of course is conclusive, but so far, claims that differences can be heard have not been supported by data.

This is it in the proverbial nut shell. The distinction is between a claim that something must be so set against the inability to provide data that it is so.

(2012-04-22 18:42)Delboy Wrote:  ... Going back to your analogy, if a branded analgesic works significantly better than the generic because it is expensive and sold in a nice colourful package, then why not.

Apart from throwing money down the drain, do you mean, Delboy? I suppose an answer could be because in doing so you blur the distinction between illusion and reality. There is no long term gain in suspending a search for the truth for the sake of a comforting or pleasing delusion.

Stunta's post following Delboy's (quoted above) makes a significant point about what the gap between both claims and pricing might lead one to expect on the one hand, and the difficulty of even proving its very existence on the other. Talk of ripping off and snake oil is not helpful because there are other things at stake in the pursuit of excellence. But a request for data in defence of claims is surely the least the evidence so far demands?

Vic.

[Bumtious]

I've kept out of this but have been reading carefully. Sometimes there are very good arguments being presented and it's easy to understand why. Most of the time I'm just slapping my hand against my forehead.

IMHO a lot of the opinions can be adressed but not here.

I'm prepared to put some time in.

Vic. Where do you live. Depending on that, I'm prepared to come to you or you can come to me and anyone else who wants to have a fun experimental and educational evening.

I've been heavily involved in preparing music tracks for broadcast since 2000.

There seems a gulf in understanding what high res files actually offer and I'm happy to explain by showing and explaining to whoever wants to listen.

But need examples to play so I can explain and debate.

Anyone up for this.

Steve

[VicJayL]

(2012-04-24 10:03)Bumtious Wrote:  There seems a gulf in understanding what high res files actually offer

Hi Bumtious,

I really don't think there is "a gulf in understanding" at all. Either the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192 is demonstrable or it's not. Either I can hear it or I can't. Either a tiny percentage of "golden-eared" music lovers can hear it and the majority not, or no one can hear it. The claim of both "camps" is clear enough, surely? - and the claims of one, conclusively verifiable.

If you are saying that one has to be trained to hear it, that's different, I suppose, but it makes an awfully big assumption about listeners' experience here.

As for your kind offer, I'm certainly up for it if it involves provable and objective testing. Check your PM box.

Vic.

[Delboy]

(2012-04-24 08:16)VicJayL Wrote:  

(2012-04-22 18:42)Delboy Wrote:  ... Going back to your analogy, if a branded analgesic works significantly better than the generic because it is expensive and sold in a nice colourful package, then why not.

Apart from throwing money down the drain, do you mean, Delboy? I suppose an answer could be because in doing so you blur the distinction between illusion and reality. There is no long term gain in suspending a search for the truth for the sake of a comforting or pleasing delusion.

I agree this was a little flippant. While I think it is perfectly acceptable to pay extra for the expectation that an expensively packaged analgesic will work better than the same product in plain packaging, because it has been proved to deliver up to 30% more pain relief. I'm not sure I would apply the same principle to expensively packaged audiophile products where the cost benefit is still unproven

[VicJayL]

(2012-04-24 10:03)Bumtious Wrote:  IMHO a lot of the opinions can be adressed but not here.

I'm prepared to put some time in.

Vic. Where do you live. Depending on that, I'm prepared to come to you or you can come to me and anyone else who wants to have a fun experimental and educational evening.


There seems a gulf in understanding what high res files actually offer and I'm happy to explain by showing and explaining to whoever wants to listen.


Anyone up for this.

Steve

Well, following making contact, what an enlightening discussion with Steve ("Bumtious" - and he's not in the least, by the way - bumtious, that is!) And what a delicious listening/testing session we are in the process of setting up here at Vic Towers. I eagerly look forward to some serious "re-education".

Steve has a lot to offer this debate and I hope he will share his thoughts and experience here more often.

If anyone is in the region of the West Midlands (UK) on the 9th or 10th May ( times TBA) and would like to join us, PM me for details. Bear in mind the level of my system though (unless anyone would like to bring along a KDS!) and the fact that I would like to know before we start what each of us can or cannot distinguish with the files I have been testing myself on.

Exciting!

Vic.

[Bumtious]

(2012-04-25 07:44)VicJayL Wrote:  Well, following making contact, what an enlightening discussion with Steve ("Bumtious" - and he's not in the least, by the way - bumtious, that is!) And what a delicious listening/testing session we are in the process of setting up here at Vic Towers. I eagerly look forward to some serious "re-education".

Steve has a lot to offer this debate and I hope he will share his thoughts and experience here more often.



Vic.

Good talking to you too Vic, will post more later....BUT.

The name its Bumtious (NOT BUMPTIOUS) did not know what it meant till a few months ago, but I guess its easy to come across as bumptious when posting as you can't get across tone and diction in written text.

Bumtious was a silly name I gave my daughter as a baby.

Sammy scrumptious bumble bumtious, she was known as that till she was 10 now its not cool (she's 16) now she's know as OY. (well actually bumble)

Just a Dad thing

[AppMan]

Here is one to try!

Same Hardware, same Signal Material in two totally differing rooms, lets say the Kitchen and Living room, would we expect the same results while "Blind Testing".......?

OF COURSE NOT, it would be like listening to a Choir in Church and then having them sing in your Garage - No Comparison! The sound waves will reflect totally different in both rooms, significantly changing the appearance & enjoyment of the music.

So why the disbelief that a 24/192 signal would have no effect? The Xiph paper is based in the Lab and makes no reference to real world deployment, even those sound waves produced leaving our audible capabilities will have an affect on the vibration of a rooms materials and the air in the room - Even the air temperature and humidity will affect the audio experience, so even those invisible Infra Red rays he mentioned will have an effect as they warm our environment.

Take a look Holistically how the signals affect our environments & listening enjoyment and even the invisible becomes relevant.

Thank Goodness the people at Linn live in real homes and build systems for the real world.

[VicJayL]

(2012-10-26 14:20)AppMan Wrote:  So why the disbelief that a 24/192 signal would have no effect? The Xiph paper is based in the Lab and makes no reference to real world deployment,

...

Take a look Holistically how the signals affect our environments & listening enjoyment and even the invisible becomes relevant.

Thank Goodness the people at Linn live in real homes and build systems for the real world.

So are you saying that differences that can't be detected in "lab" conditions can be detected in "real world" (home listening) conditions? How does that work?

The other context where "holistic" is usually invoked involves a hefty dose of wishful thinking.

Vic.

[hcl]

(2012-10-27 06:45)VicJayL Wrote:  So are you saying that differences that can't be detected in "lab" conditions can be detected in "real world" (home listening) conditions? How does that work?

1. It is very easy to set up an experiment situation showing a non significant result in any directon e.g. a sloppy experiment.

2. Experiments conserning emotional responces are very delicate and a slight disturbance of the individuals in the experiment can have a massive impact on the final result.

3. A non result shows only one thing; in the conducted experiment there where no significant in either way of the hypotesis being put to test. A non result do not prove that there are no difference. In fact, it can not be proven, it can only be backed up by statistical results. If rigorously conducted and on a large scale a non result may however give a firm indication of how things are. I do not tink there have been any tests done generally regarded as meeting these conditions.

4. What can not be easliy shown today might well be easy to prove tomorrow.

Some discuss this subject as if everything is known and nothing is to add on the subject of music, recording and human musical perception.

[Quaternion]

I guess the underlying question is (for 24 vs. 16, one cable against the other, one DS against the other etc.,etc.):

Is there a 'scientific' proof for existing or perceived differences?

The typical answer is: Blindtest or even better double blind test!

This statement is taken as 'a priori' correct, the method works elsewhere, e.g. in the medical industry, doesn't it?

But the first question should be: is a blindtest a proper methodology for comparing subtle audio differences?

And I guess that is the crux, it isn't - which leaves us with no 'scientific' methodology which of course is frustrating and contradicts and challenges the critical mind that wants to understand...