5103 Technical Question on Speaker Configuration

[Per Lindgren]

Hi

This question goes to you techheads that have experience with the 5103 and speaker configurations.

The manual is not really answering my question(s), and to reverse engineer the 5103 is of course doable but takes some effort of measurements.

1. SUB OUT. Is there any filtering done on the signal to the sub, or is is full range (e.g. in the stereo+sub mode). In the case of filters applied what are the cutoff freq, steepness and type? Does the mode of operation affect the filtering (e.g., Stero+sub, Party, Phantom...)

2. FRONT OUT. Is there any filtering done to the fronts when set in small? If so does the mode of operation affect the filtering.

3. DELAY. The distance parameters compensate using delay. Does the mode of operation affect whether delay is applied (E.g., when playing PCM Stereo in Stereo+Sub mode, does the compensation apply).

4. SIGNAL PROCESSING. When using analog inputs, is the signal processed in the analog or digital domain (e.g., when using Stereo + Sub).

If you have insights in the above, please comment on this thread and/or send me an email at Per.Lindgren@ltu.se

Thanks in advance.
Per

[CJ1045]

Just a simple point - when the 5103 has a stereo analogue source and puts out a simple stereo only signal then the digital board is not used at all. However, as soon as you use Stereo+Sub then the digtial board comes into play. This means, to me, that the filtering is done in the digital domain. In my ware house I have a 5103 with a faulty digital board that causes hiss on the outputs if any digital processing is used so it was easy for me to tell when it was kicking in.

CJ

[Per Lindgren]

(2012-04-02 10:20)CJ1045 Wrote:  Just a simple point - when the 5103 has a stereo analogue source and puts out a simple stereo only signal then the digital board is not used at all. However, as soon as you use Stereo+Sub then the digtial board comes into play. This means, to me, that the filtering is done in the digital domain. In my ware house I have a 5103 with a faulty digital board that causes hiss on the outputs if any digital processing is used so it was easy for me to tell when it was kicking in.

CJ

OK. That makes sense. Does the hissing also appear on the fronts, or just the sub. I figure on both from what you write, right?

/Per

[CJ1045]

Yep, everywhere

CJ

[Per Lindgren]

(2012-04-02 12:58)CJ1045 Wrote:  Yep, everywhere

CJ

OK, from that we can conclude that SUB mixing is done by the digital DSP. However it is not conclusive whether the fronts are also passed through the DSP (or if not the digital DSP just pollutes the analog paths).

What about actual filtering, has anyone have any info on that, measured or from some service manual, (i.e. the real manual, not the one that can be downloaded from Linn and comes with the unit...)

Best would be to get the complete routing tables, showing the signal paths for different encodings, and modes of operations. Anyone....

Best,
Per

[van604]

(2012-04-02 10:20)CJ1045 Wrote:  Just a simple point - when the 5103 has a stereo analogue source and puts out a simple stereo only signal then the digital board is not used at all. However, as soon as you use Stereo+Sub then the digtial board comes into play. This means, to me, that the filtering is done in the digital domain. In my ware house I have a 5103 with a faulty digital board that causes hiss on the outputs if any digital processing is used so it was easy for me to tell when it was kicking in.

CJ

Thats interesting. Do the later multichannel models work this way too? eg AK, Kinos, Exotik, Kisto,? etc...

[Keltik Klown]

(2012-04-02 23:23)van604 Wrote:  Thats interesting. Do the later multichannel models work this way too? eg AK, Kinos, Exotik, Kisto,? etc...

No. AK etc sub filtering is analogue.

[Per Lindgren]

(2012-04-03 00:19)Keltik Klown Wrote:  

(2012-04-02 23:23)van604 Wrote:  Thats interesting. Do the later multichannel models work this way too? eg AK, Kinos, Exotik, Kisto,? etc...

No. AK etc sub filtering is analogue.

To me it sounds a it strange that the later modes should be more analog. Maybe I should direct the question to Linn support directly, or does Linn follow this forum and comment?

[Per Lindgren]

I finally got around to reverse engineering the 5103 signal path. Input was analog stereo. Settings Front, Rear, Sub (no center channel).

Front speakers LARGE
Stereo mode
front, full range (analog, no sign of sampling artifacts)
sub (no output, low noise)

Stereo+sub
front, full range (analog, no sign of sampling artifacts)
sub, lp filtered starting at approx 100 Hz, with 10db/octave
clear indication of sampling artifacts, peak noise at 43.6 Hz. (Not 44.1 surprisingly.)
THe sub output is a lot noisier than the front out, (but since the sub itself is a LP that should not be a problem)

PL Phantom
front, full range (digital, with sampling artifacts), rather noisy (both from measurements and listening)
sub filtered as in the above Stereo+sub.

If fronts are set to SMALL. Same behavior as of above BUT when set in PL Phantom then the fronts are HP filtered 100Hz, 10db/oct.

-- conclusions
Stereo+Sub does not filter the fronts (even is set to small). Both good and bad, fronts keep an analog path (good sounding), potential overlap problem with sub since not filtered. Would need external HP (before power amp to fronts, to avoid overlap). The PL Phantom does what you expect w.r.t. filtering (HP on fronts if small) and lp on sub. However, filtering is not steep enough (10 db..) usually you would find 24bd/octave. Phase and noise is not the prettiest for the dsp either. (Well it is basically a 15 year old machine so lots has happened since its introduction). This renders the PL Phantom mode more or less unusable (well at least for music anyways).

-- possible problem.
It is a bit strange that the artifacts is found at 43.6 not 44.1 kHz, either Linn did not care much for the absolute freq if run stand-alone (unsynced to other external sources). Or it could be that my unit has some defect (well all the functions operate correctly as I expect so I do not think so).

The measurements were made using the Clio 10.2, and look decent enough besides what is discussed above.

(If you at Linn read this, please feel free to comment, I might of course have done something faulty/or drawn the wrong conclusions.)

Hope this info has value to there using their 5103 with sub for music listening.

Best,
Per

[rowlandhills]

Interesting stuff Per. Thanks for posting your findings.