From 10 years ago from Ivor

[grimreaper46]

Thought these comments from Ivor in Stereophile some 10 years ago might stir some comments.

David Lander: We haven't met since the mid-1980s, when I interviewed you about the then-brand-new Compact Disc medium. You talked about its dark side.

Ivor Tiefenbrun: I felt the standard was inadequate. I think events have proven me wrong, that the standard was just adequate enough, but it took an awful lot of expertise—given the limited headroom and the limitations of technology—to actually do justice to the 16-bit standard in the first place. I think people who argued that the standard was adequate were proven right, and I was wrong. On the other hand, it took Linn 15 or 20 years to produce a CD player that I believe is equal to our top-performing record player, and many of our customers still don't agree with me on that.

[hcl]

I would argue that Ivor's initial claim that the compact disc format is inadequate to be the most correct. If not on all recordings, but for a format to be generally suitable it shall not be practically limiting at all.

[grimreaper46]

I have some original Cream recordings on LP. They are compressed sounding, totally without dynamics and do the band no credit at all. Does this prove the medium of the LP is flawed. Or is it just that the engineer made a total cock up of the recording?

Originally I believe the Engineers producing the CD were listening and mixing almost as if the recording would have RIAA equalisation applied (as with all LP's of course) and they "listened" with a mind set of how it would sound on LP and lots got it wrong. There were improvements made in oversampling techniques and error correction software and transports and LASER technology. Gradually the sound improved.

I believe Ivor was totally correct in his assessment, CD was only just good enough. But he does clearly state that after a good 10-15 years of development Linn produced a CD player, that in his words sounded as good as the LP12.

I am afraid you can't be selective about Ivor's comments this is ingenuous.

[SaltyDog]

I've said it before, I think the CD Red Book is the lowest acceptable format.

It is good enough.

I want and appreciate better and will not spend on less than 16/44. I doubt I'll replace much I already have, but I said that about vinyl, says he who just bought Physical Graffiti on used CD.

[linnfomaniac]

(2012-04-08 13:15)grimreaper46 Wrote:  I have some original Cream recordings on LP. They are compressed sounding, totally without dynamics and do the band no credit at all. Does this prove the medium of the LP is flawed. Or is it just that the engineer made a total cock up of the recording?

The engineer made a total cock up of the recording.
I have plenty of albums on cd and vinyl that should be great but sound crap because the sound engineer messed up or just didn't bother at all .

I have made recordings using pretty primative kit in a band practise studio on a sunday afternoon that sound pretty good so it amazes me when major record labels get it wrong.

I love the stranger by billy joel and have it on cd and vinyl but the sound quality leaves a lot to be desired, I have other albums that are much worse!

[linnrd]

(2012-04-08 17:26)linnfomaniac Wrote:  I love the stranger by billy joel and have it on cd and vinyl but the sound quality leaves a lot to be desired, I have other albums that are much worse!

Is it just me, or does the kick drum on that album sound like it's made out of cardboard?

[linnfomaniac]

(2012-04-08 22:43)linnrd Wrote:  

(2012-04-08 17:26)linnfomaniac Wrote:  I love the stranger by billy joel and have it on cd and vinyl but the sound quality leaves a lot to be desired, I have other albums that are much worse!

Is it just me, or does the kick drum on that album sound like it's made out of cardboard?

The whole album just sounds congested which is a shame because it's great music.

[linnrd]

(2012-04-08 23:04)linnfomaniac Wrote:  

(2012-04-08 22:43)linnrd Wrote:  

(2012-04-08 17:26)linnfomaniac Wrote:  I love the stranger by billy joel and have it on cd and vinyl but the sound quality leaves a lot to be desired, I have other albums that are much worse!

Is it just me, or does the kick drum on that album sound like it's made out of cardboard?

The whole album just sounds congested which is a shame because it's great music.

They've teased out the other instruments in the DSD mix (so there is some decent separation), but the kick drum appears to be beyond redemption.

[linnfomaniac]

I did consider buying the sacd at one time but I don't have a unidisk anymore so it's pointless.

Just being listening to paul mcartney's all the best compilation on both vinyl and cd, the cd sounds much better imho!

[Dr_Eddie]

(2012-04-08 13:15)grimreaper46 Wrote:  I have some original Cream recordings on LP. They are compressed sounding, totally without dynamics and do the band no credit at all. Does this prove the medium of the LP is flawed. Or is it just that the engineer made a total cock up of the recording?

Originally I believe the Engineers producing the CD were listening and mixing almost as if the recording would have RIAA equalisation applied (as with all LP's of course) and they "listened" with a mind set of how it would sound on LP and lots got it wrong. There were improvements made in oversampling techniques and error correction software and transports and LASER technology. Gradually the sound improved.

I believe Ivor was totally correct in his assessment, CD was only just good enough. But he does clearly state that after a good 10-15 years of development Linn produced a CD player, that in his words sounded as good as the LP12.

I am afraid you can't be selective about Ivor's comments this is ingenuous.

The problem with recording a band like Cream in those old days was that you were basically recording the sound of an overdriven PA system that sounded exactly like the compressed lack of dynamics you have described. The SPL's at the live gig would have left you deaf as a stone for about 2 hours afterwards. Recording that ain't easy, believe me.

However, things got much better as PA technology improved. Just listen to Bob Marley's Live at the Lyceum or The Allman Bros Live at the Fillmore East. Done properly live albums are really great.

The thing is that the quality of CD can NEVER be improved. But vinyl replay is leaving CD further and further behind, and there is still arguably a long way to go before we even begin to find it's limits.