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Take me to your Lieder
2012-04-18, 11:06
Post: #1
Take me to your Lieder
The secret world of the piano accompanist, by Alisdair Hogarth, of The Prince Consort. Fascinating stuff.

http://blogs.linn.co.uk/music/alisdair-h...lieder.php
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2012-04-18, 12:28 (This post was last modified: 2012-04-18 12:29 by grimreaper46.)
Post: #2
RE: Take me to your Lieder
I was getting really excited. Thought this might be about Lederhosen.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQyTpM-FpuFOQCc4y7Aqf...BSN1Cm4uCg]


Tongue

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2012-04-18, 12:33
Post: #3
RE: Take me to your Lieder
Nope, that's the next one.
Careful - you'll get the lederhosen police on to this thread...

Hope you read it anyway - it's a great blog and the classical clips are stunning (and making it much easier for me to get into Classical music...)
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2012-04-19, 09:39
Post: #4
RE: Take me to your Lieder
(2012-04-18 12:28)grimreaper46 Wrote:  I was getting really excited. Thought this might be about Lederhosen.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQyTpM-FpuFOQCc4y7Aqf...BSN1Cm4uCg]


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Come on Grim, mind above the navel please.

Read the article while listening to Susan Wong and I must say I'm listening with a different perspective.

It's wonderful to be able to switch between listening to the song and following individual components.

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2012-04-19, 10:15 (This post was last modified: 2012-04-19 10:16 by grimreaper46.)
Post: #5
RE: Take me to your Lieder
Interesting read. Now I shall be a bit contraversial.

Whilst I do have a fair number of classical albums, as my knowledge of that genre is limited, it tends to be the popular favorites. I do also like a bit of Opera (well my G/parents were Italian!) but tend to go for comic Opera like G&S (I love The Mikado)

My problem is this (hold on to your hats Classic buffs). I find Classical music more for the head than the heart. It seems that you need a degree in music to understand it. The worst are Classic music "snobs" who will not listen to the "inferior" music most listen to.

As an example. I love Stephen Fry and watched with interest his TV programme on Wagner. Now Stephen could make the London Telephone Directory interesting and I enjoyed the show and the insight it gave me.....however...he spent a lot of time on the first Chord of the particular piece and how it's development moved through the music etc. etc. Didn't understand a word of it. It seemed that only if you understood the reasoning behind moving from A minor 7th to B# with an augmented 6th (just made all that up, but you get the point) you can't possibly appreciate the music.

Now, I can put on a piece of what we might call popular music (be it Rock, Folk, Blues, Jazz whatever) and I can be involved straight away. That does not mean you can get a bit more enjoyment by undersatnding the musicians background and history (did Robert Johnson really meet the Devil at the Crossroads) but it isn't vital or even necessary.

Now I don't feel "clever" enough to understand Classical music. So rather like paintings, I like what I like and I will settle for that.

Sits back and waits for comments........Sad

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2012-04-19, 11:15
Post: #6
RE: Take me to your Lieder
First, great little article. I enjoyed that.

(2012-04-19 10:15)grimreaper46 Wrote:  My problem is this (hold on to your hats Classic buffs). I find Classical music more for the head than the heart.

I think this applies to all art. People often say they can't understand modern art - well, why should they? A minimalist sculpture, taken at face value, is just a box. Music taken at face value is just a tune. You need to know the context, the reference points, you need to know enough to interpret what the artist is giving to you. Otherwise you have to take it at face value.

When I was young I didn't get Picasso at all. Now I've been painting for twenty+ years, he stuns me - the technique in those "childish" pictures is incredible. I didn't like the old masters either - boring. But now I've learned more about art history I can begin to unpick the layers of meaning, and finally appreciate it. With classical music, I like to read about what I'm listening to, to give me some framework in which to understand it.

Painting, poetry, music, are pinnacles of human intellectual achievement. Though some of their appeal may like in something as simple and inexplicable as "beauty", to marvel at the technique of the artist writer or composer we must understand what they are doing.

With all art I think you get back what you put in, so effort and knowledge are required. Anything else is just entertainment.

Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
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2012-04-19, 12:02
Post: #7
RE: Take me to your Lieder
One of my problems is that often the "experts" tell you what is good and because they are experts it's rather like the Kings suit of clothes. Only when the primative tells you the King is naked does everyone say "Oh of course he is".

A friend of mine many moons ago used to spend his lunch breaks at a local art gallery. He saw a painting that he loved (I think it was a Dutch Interior). Day after day he used to go back and eat his lunch in front of this painting.

One day one of the Directors came to him and said "I see you come back day after day. You really like that painting don't you?"

After some conversation, the Director took him to another work. "Now look at that close up, what do you see". My friend said it just looked like a load of coloured dots. "slowly move back" said the Director "Now what do you see". My friend commented that the picture now started to make sense and he felt it was very very good.

The Director said "That's Art, the other is simply Draughtsmanship".

So does that mean, because an Expert said so, the first all of sudden wasn't art anymore?

And nobody will ever convince me that a pile of bricks is art.

Yours, a Philistine Tongue

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2012-04-19, 15:14
Post: #8
RE: Take me to your Lieder
Some interesting debate - and I'm pleased to see you contribute more than just saucy snaps, grimreaper Wink

It reminds me of a recent thread about 'getting' rap music, as in 'I don't get rap music', 'I don't get art' etc.

It's not really about 'getting', as much as enjoying or appreciating. I've started to listen to more and more Classical music, but wouldn't know my baroque from my bolshoi (though I do know this isn't music, for anyone who feels compelled to correct...). Does this mean I enjoy it less, more or the same as someone who knows the names, movements and minutiae?

Sometimes you can listen - or sit and look in the case of the art gallery example - and enjoy for years without ever thinking beyond that simple pleasure, the 'joy'. Sometimes you find out a bit more or research into something you enjoy - like the recent George Harrison documentary - and it adds to your enjoyment to have that greater insight (or detract if you find out more about the artist or meaning than you might agree or sympathise with).

In the case of Alisdair's blog, I find it interesting to learn more about the technicalities or intricacies of the music but it's supplementary rather than necessary i.e. it adds to enjoyment rather than enables it in first place, rounds out rather than obstructs.

It only becomes a problem with those who try to bully an interpretation or force you to understand or debate a great work before you're allowed to appreciate it (like "goats of literature" who feed off works of art and make a living from claiming the sole right to interpret or prophecise).

Phew, lecture over - carry on Smile
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2012-04-19, 16:57
Post: #9
RE: Take me to your Lieder
(2012-04-19 12:02)grimreaper46 Wrote:  The Director said "That's Art, the other is simply Draughtsmanship".

So does that mean, because an Expert said so, the first all of sudden wasn't art anymore?

And nobody will ever convince me that a pile of bricks is art.

I think you've rather contradicted yourself there. You seem to be saying the expert shouldn't be allowed to decide what is and isn't art, but you should! For what it's worth, I agree with the Director: I always see "art" as about ideas, and "craft" as technical skill. That said, I like my art with a very large dollop of craft.

You're right of course, a pile of bricks isn't art, the same as a lump of stone isn't art. However, if the "pile of bricks" is arranged into Equivalent VIII (or any of the other Equivalent sculptures) as the final product of a long, reasoned process, then it may be considered art. Similarly, if the lump of stone is made into the form of a reclining figure, as the final product of a long, reasoned process, then that may be art as well.

In fact, the bricks illustrate the original point very well. If you understand the "rules" of sculpture with which Carl Andre was working, and if you understand the concepts of minimalism, then you start to "get it", and you see how the piece of work makes us think about what constitutes art, and the ownership of a piece. It may be difficult to enjoy Equivalent VIII on an aesthetic level, but it can be very satisfying on an intellectual one. However, if you don't know those rules, it's just a pile of bricks.

I think that when I listen to opera. It's just a load of instruments and some singing in Italian. It means nothing to me because I don't have the background.

So, now we've sorted out what is and isn't art, who want to argue about whether or not mains cables make a difference? Tongue

Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
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2012-04-19, 16:58
Post: #10
RE: Take me to your Lieder
I think that's my point (I was the "RAP" man as well Sad ). My Classical collection is mainly the "Pops", 1812, Four Seasons, Brandenburg, Greig's 1st Piano (with the notes in the right order-appologies to Eric Morcambe and Andre Preview) etc. etc.

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