New LP12 top plate production

[johnandchris]

Hi Folks. This may be in the wrong area so Mods please feel free to move it.

I own an LP12 Sondek which i think is a wonderful piece of equipment. When developed by linn (or Ariston) it brought high qualitly turntables to the masses.

It was not without its problems however. The subchassis was pressed steel and the curved top plate (linn say pre bent to provide good anchorage but i suspect it has the curve as it came off a roll) was stainless steel and flexible. Both of these are design flaws and cause inconsistencies in set up.

I wont go into the subchassis here as there are already alternatives on the market including a new machined one from Linn, The KEEL.

The LP12, as a suspended turntable, relies on accurate setup to allow the suspension to work. With the curved top plate, it is nearly impossible to get the springs to hang perpendicular to the top plate. Indeed LINN developed a special tool for bending the springs, although how accurate this is in real life i have my doubts. Anyway, bending the bolts is a fix not a cure and can cause the top plate to bend slightly.

I have an engineering background and as i am also curious, i have looked into the top plate engineering. There is a company called Tiger Paw who make the KHAN top plate, a lovely looking piece of engineering with an eye watering introductory price of £800!!. It is a CNC machined piece of aluminium with some lovely "resonance reducing rings" on top.

It is supposed to be a great improvement on the standard subchassis as it is absolutely flat and the mounting holes for the bolts are machined in so they stand at a perfect 90 degree angle. Its engineering in this department is sound and makes sense, however i believe (my personal opinion) that although it is well made, it is over engineered. I dont subscribe to the resonance reduction claims etc, and i think a more simple option would offer all the benefits at a considerable cost reduction.

I have spoken at length with a CNC machining company and i am currently in the development process for a simple top plate using tried and tested manufacturing processes to ensure a stable, flat and simply constructed high quality top plate. Preliminary investigations indicate that the cost of one of my top plates, machined and anodised would come in, to the consumer, at about £375 to £400, so less than half the price of the KHAN.

I am having a prototype made up and will report back on the finished product, however what i am looking for is an initial indication (rough) of who may be interested. I am not looking for a definite yes or no, but opinions would be gratefully received to give me a ball park figure that i can discuss with the CNC company. I have already had a number of expressions of interest from other sources.

I have been making low cost, high quality interconnects and tonearm cables for many years and have sold hundred all over the world. I know that i have only just joined this forum, however i have been a member of other forums for years (including Audiosmile), have contributed to discussions and had a lot of help with hi-fi matters from various knowledgeable people there. As this is a dedicated LP12 item i feel that this is the best place to ascertain interest.
Feel free to leave any constructive comments (negative or positive) regarding what i am planning to do. If you wish to PM me also feel free.

Thanks in advance for your time.

John

[shoot6x7]

For the improvement in sound, I think Khan is a freaking bargain. The improvement shouldn't be a surprise as it was conceived by a team which includes one of the best Sondek-meisters in the world with decades of LP12 experience.

The sub-chassis has many alternatives of varying qualities and sales volumes. If you want to make a 'cheaper than Khan' top-plate, knock yourself out. However, remember that the proof of the pudding is the improvement in sound quality .....

[John R.]

I don't doubt the Khan is a bargain, it's certainly nicely made and finished, but it does not mean an alternative anodised aluminium top plate won't help the LP12 sound better, (or different) than one with standard stainless steel top plate. It's too early to tell if an LP12 fitted with Khan will sound better than one fitted with this latest version and we may never know anyhow.

I wish them well as I have done most.

Who's to say different is "not better" other than the beholder who's cash is about to leave the wallet or not?

I think its great that there's alternatives for the LP12 to suit all pockets, let's just let the buyer decide what he or she goes for.

Regards

John R.

[Julian H]

I have not heard a top plate I would rather have to the "flawed and in consisted to set up" Linn top plate yet. There is already a 77 page thread of eulogy about the product you are intending to compete with further down this page. Perhaps you might take a peek.

Congratulations on making your first post an advertorial for your business.

[John G]

(2012-05-05 15:03)honeymonster Wrote:  I have not heard a top plate I would rather have to the "flawed and in consisted to set up" Linn top plate.

Have you done a proper comparison with a Khan?

[Julian H]

(2012-05-05 15:13)John G Wrote:  

(2012-05-05 15:03)honeymonster Wrote:  I have not heard a top plate I would rather have to the "flawed and in consisted to set up" Linn top plate.

Have you done a proper comparison with a Khan?

Yes

[Wenge1]

(2012-05-05 14:56)Analogue innovation Wrote:  I don't doubt the Khan is a bargain, it's certainly nicely made and finished, but it does not mean an alternative anodised aluminium top plate won't help to the LP12 sound better, (or different) than one with the standard stainless steel top plate. It's too early to tell if an LP12 fitted with Khan will sound better than one fitted with this latest version and we may never know anyhow.

I wish them well as I have done most.

Who's to say different is "not better" other than the beholder who's cash is about to leave the wallet or not?

I think its great that there's alternatives for the LP12 to suit all pockets, let's just let the buyer decide what he or she goes for.

Regards

John R.

.

As you can see from my signature, I have invested in the Khan top plate and I am very happy that it was money well spent. However I agree with John that the more choices that are available at different price points the better. The products themselves and the difference that they make to the quality of the sound from the LP12 will ultimately decide how successful they are.

.

[johnandchris]

Hi. Really glad some opinions are starting to come in.
The flawed engineering that i referred to is simple mechanics. For a spring to work properly it need to be mounted properly and, in this case, perpendicular to the top plate. If the top plate is not flat then the bolt will not hang directly down and the spring will therefore work on an angle. This is where the art of setting up an LP12 comes in, however bending and repositioning the bolts/springs is a fix to the problem not a solution. If you bend metal, it has a tendancy to try and return to its original shape so a bent bolt may skew slightly once it settles.
I am making no outragous claims about my new top plate. It will not change the sound, it will neither add nor detract from the Linn sound. All it will simply do is to provide an accurate, stable platform from which the subchassis will hang. It will allow simple set up time and time again without the need to distress either the top plate or bolts by bending.

This is not a cheap copy of the Khan, i am not manufacturing the spirals in like they have, i am simply offering a well engineered replacement for a mechanically suspect original.

Kind regards
John

[Julian H]

You can talk a lot about theory and engineering that would suit your proposed product but that does not necessarily mean it will sound better to my, or any other potential customers. Surely if it makes a change to the sound of an LP12, it, by very definition, changes the LINN sound.

[John G]

(2012-05-05 15:15)honeymonster Wrote:  

(2012-05-05 15:13)John G Wrote:  

(2012-05-05 15:03)honeymonster Wrote:  I have not heard a top plate I would rather have to the "flawed and in consisted to set up" Linn top plate.

Have you done a proper comparison with a Khan?

Yes

Interesting, as that's the first negative review I've heard regarding the Khan. Can you expand on what you didn't like?

---

(2012-05-05 15:23)johnandchris Wrote:  Hi. Really glad some opinions are starting to come in.
The flawed engineering that i referred to is simple mechanics. For a spring to work properly it need to be mounted properly and, in this case, perpendicular to the top plate. If the top plate is not flat then the bolt will not hang directly down and the spring will therefore work on an angle. This is where the art of setting up an LP12 comes in, however bending and repositioning the bolts/springs is a fix to the problem not a solution. If you bend metal, it has a tendancy to try and return to its original shape so a bent bolt may skew slightly once it settles.
I am making no outragous claims about my new top plate. It will not change the sound, it will neither add nor detract from the Linn sound. All it will simply do is to provide an accurate, stable platform from which the subchassis will hang. It will allow simple set up time and time again without the need to distress either the top plate or bolts by bending.

This is not a cheap copy of the Khan, i am not manufacturing the spirals in like they have, i am simply offering a well engineered replacement for a mechanically suspect original.

Kind regards
John

Will your top plate use the stock bolts used in a standard Linn top plate and will there be a cross strap as supplied with a Khan? If it's very similar to a stock top plate the cost of yours still seems high.