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New LP12 top plate production
2012-05-06, 08:37
Post: #21
RE: New LP12 top plate production
Honeymonster,

I have heard of one other person who demo'ed The Khan and felt whilst it added something it took others things away that he preferred so he staid as is.

Richard.

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2012-05-06, 11:30
Post: #22
RE: New LP12 top plate production
"If you build it, they will come"

Field of Dreams!

KR
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2012-05-06, 14:10 (This post was last modified: 2012-05-06 14:10 by Dr_Eddie.)
Post: #23
RE: New LP12 top plate production
The whole point of the exercise that you need to ask yourself is this ...............there is no doubt in my mind that when fitted by a Linn Dealer of the quality of Peter, Thomas, Colin, Hamish and Derek etc. the standard Linn top plate does the job perfectly well. The suspension can be set up entirely to the satisfaction of the factory, and the listener. It is not flawed. It may seem to be under engineered, but it is not. I doubt very much whether you could even copy it and get it to sound as good as the genuine part. It is in fact a tuned part, that is much improved over the years.

The Khan on the other hand does not set out to improve the suspension or ease the set up for the dealer. The Khan sets out to reduce transmitted motor noise and energy, and then to prevent it from reaching the stylus. It achieves this aim admirably. The way it does this is obviously only known to the designers, but it took many attempts for them to even get the new part to equal the Linn top plate, let alone improve on it.

Does the market need another top plate ? I think there isn't really a need for another top plate between the Linn and the Khan and it is the dealers you have to convince first.
The only way to do this is to beat the Khan. You have given yourself a mighty tall order.
I wish you luck indeed.
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2012-05-06, 21:43
Post: #24
RE: New LP12 top plate production
(2012-05-05 15:03)honeymonster Wrote:  I have not heard a top plate I would rather have to the "flawed and in consisted to set up" Linn top plate yet. There is already a 77 page thread of eulogy about the product you are intending to compete with further down this page.

Have you heard a Khan, HM? Or is 77 pages of eulogy still not enough to convince you to see if it really is better than the stock top-plate? Wink

Regards,

Andy
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2012-05-06, 22:18 (This post was last modified: 2012-05-06 22:20 by mudcrutch.)
Post: #25
RE: New LP12 top plate production
(2012-05-06 21:43)Andy Wrote:  
(2012-05-05 15:03)honeymonster Wrote:  I have not heard a top plate I would rather have to the "flawed and in consisted to set up" Linn top plate yet. There is already a 77 page thread of eulogy about the product you are intending to compete with further down this page.

Have you heard a Khan, HM? Or is 77 pages of eulogy still not enough to convince you to see if it really is better than the stock top-plate? Wink

Regards,

Andy
Andy,
If you read back you will see HM did give it a good listen.
Peter even posted about it.
HM has bloody good ears.
Mud
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2012-05-06, 22:50
Post: #26
RE: New LP12 top plate production
(2012-05-06 22:18)Mudcrutch Wrote:  
(2012-05-06 21:43)Andy Wrote:  Have you heard a Khan, HM? Or is 77 pages of eulogy still not enough to convince you to see if it really is better than the stock top-plate? Wink

Regards,

Andy
Andy,
If you read back you will see HM did give it a good listen.
Peter even posted about it.
HM has bloody good ears.
Mud

Thanks, Mud (I didn't read through all the pages of the thread). My query was not to cast doubt on how "good" his ears might be but to try to determine whether HM is one of these who hanker after the "classic" (ie. early) Linn sound. Wink

For instance, I wonder if he has a Cirkus on his deck ... and if he does, how long did it take for him to decide to get it installed? (I had mine installed quite soon after it came out and regarded it as a very worthwhile improvement in sound in that it corrected a "defect" of non-Cirkus-ed LP12s. Smile )

Regards,

Andy
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2012-05-07, 08:26
Post: #27
RE: New LP12 top plate production
C
(2012-05-05 15:33)honeymonster Wrote:  You can talk a lot about theory and engineering that would suit your proposed product but that does not necessarily mean it will sound better to my, or any other potential customers. Surely if it makes a change to the sound of an LP12, it, by very definition, changes the LINN sound.

I believe the OP said the goal is not to change the sound, just provide a more consistent and geometrically stable platform to mount the suspension bolts.

Which then begs the question why wouldn't linn have thought to do this in the first place? Well I imagine they found that a top plate under stress (curved) sounded better than a flat one.

I wish you good luck with your venture J&C but unless it improves on the original top plate sonically I fail to see the point - just my opinion Smile
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2012-05-07, 09:44
Post: #28
RE: New LP12 top plate production
(2012-05-06 22:50)Andy Wrote:  
(2012-05-06 22:18)Mudcrutch Wrote:  
(2012-05-06 21:43)Andy Wrote:  Have you heard a Khan, HM? Or is 77 pages of eulogy still not enough to convince you to see if it really is better than the stock top-plate? Wink

Regards,

Andy
Andy,
If you read back you will see HM did give it a good listen.
Peter even posted about it.
HM has bloody good ears.
Mud

Thanks, Mud (I didn't read through all the pages of the thread). My query was not to cast doubt on how "good" his ears might be but to try to determine whether HM is one of these who hanker after the "classic" (ie. early) Linn sound. Wink

For instance, I wonder if he has a Cirkus on his deck ... and if he does, how long did it take for him to decide to get it installed? (I had mine installed quite soon after it came out and regarded it as a very worthwhile improvement in sound in that it corrected a "defect" of non-Cirkus-ed LP12s. Smile )

Regards,

Andy

HM likes what he likes. He has a full Radikal, Urika Se LP12 set-up by me. He was also one of the first guys to move away from the Superline. As Mud says....
Quote:HM has bloody good ears.
and has been writing some of the best and most well thought out posts on the Linn and Naim forums for the past 5-10 years.

As I said earlier, he knows what he likes and that's fine by me. All we retailers want is our clients to be as happy as possible. To suggest. To advise and guide. To demonstrate differences etc. But to dictate.... absolutely not IMHO.

I demonstrated the differences and this was very clear to him. It was just a place he didn't wan't to go, which is fair enough and no problemSmile. I'm sure he will be trying the sKale in due course and will act on what his ears tell him.

KR

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2012-05-07, 13:49
Post: #29
RE: New LP12 top plate production
At the end of the day........( it gets dark, I know ) all of us HM, Mud, and all of you end up with a system that "does it" for us. These systems are invariably fine tuned over the course of many years. The tiniest change can upset those balances, and Khan isn't a tiny change.

In my own system Khan provided a fairly massive change. It pushed the drumming and the bass playing up in the mix, a few notches of the mixer desk sliders, amongst other things.

As a bass player I immediately felt that was "right". In fact recordings I'd played on sounded incredibly close to the master tape played back in the control room ( for the first time ).
If HM enjoys his system as it is, then that change could easily be a change too far and upset the system to his ears. I respect that, he knows what he likes.

The only way to approach this is to say " Is this right FOR ME ?" We are all individuals, there is no universal right or wrong, but as one of the first people to post a review of Khan, many people have since agreed, they seem to share my enthusiasm for this product, and I doubt whether I'll be moving away from my Superline any time soon. That may be relevant too.

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2012-05-07, 14:37
Post: #30
RE: New LP12 top plate production
Some very valid points. I suspect what the KHAN did was to allow your suspension to work properly by providing a stable platform.
Even the best set up LP12, with the suspension working off a curved top plate could have its problems. As previously mentioned, a 'corrected' (bent) bolt will have a tendancy to try and return to its original form. This is the fabled suspension going out of tune.
A flat top plate would, in esesence, sound no better than the standard top plate if perfectly set up but that is the point, a perfectly set up plate is almost impossible to guaranteee. Any deviation from a perfect set up does not allow the suspension to work properly which can introduce lateral movement potentially causing issues at the stylus.
LINN have claimed that the top plate is bent to ensure a stressed fit. This is partially true, however a stressed fit is only necessary to stop the top plate sagging.if the standard flexible linn top plate were to be absolutely flat prior to fitting then the mass applied when the subchassis/arm combination was hung from it the plate would bow slightly down.
A rigid platter does away with all this guesswork and allows an lp12 to operate as it should.
I am hopefully getting a prototype manufactured this week so will report back once tested. I will provide photos (the prototype wont be annodised) as soon as i get it back.

Thanks for all your comments. I know not everyone will be interested but if i can provide a low cost, top quality alternative, then i will be content.

John
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