Klouts vs Chakra 6100

[mrco99]

Think of what is most important to you and how much money you are willing to spend on it.

If you choose Majik/Akurate amps, make sure they´re dynamiked.
Especially with Majik amps it makes a lot of difference.

Majik amps will be better in some repects, but not all, than Klouts.
You have to experiment or demo first before you know what is best for you.
Maybe try a pair of chakra mono cards directly in the Klouts instead of Tunebox.

I have 6100/d with Keltiks and shortly tried a MDSi as a fourth channel.
It gets noticeably better, but the internal pre-amp compromises the performance of the Renew DS, and I don't know how to use it as a power amp only, so a separate amp seems the only logical upgrade.
I don't have shutting down issues, but also don't play very loud.
As I owned a 6100 before the Keltiks, I did not go for 3-4 separate Klouts as I found them too expensive and power consuming.
I don't know how Keltiks sound with Klouts, but I'll take Salty's word for it when he says they're made for each other.

A single 6100 will only be an interim solution, and maybe you should aim directly for 4200s, if you can get used to this sound.
Keltik XOs are the ultimate to get if you want to squeeze the best out of them, but they're rare and pricey.

Since you already have Klouts I would not get rid of them too fast, if it is only for space requirements.
If you hang onto them for their ability to really drive your Keltiks, you will probably only be happy with no less than 2x4200 with chakra cards inside. But that comes at a price.

So maybe just try getting the tunebox out, box redux with 1, and try to have all connected with silvers?
Let us know how you fare.

[CJ1045]

Just a point of clarification - I don't think he has a Tunebox - it is a Keltik Active Box.

CJ

[mrco99]

(2012-05-30 10:20)CJ1045 Wrote:  Just a point of clarification - I don't think he has a Tunebox - it is a Keltik Active Box.

CJ

Hi CJ,

Thanks for the correction. Isn't that the grandpa of the Tunebox that takes the same mono LK style active cards? Or is that a one-box solution?

Maybe a Tunebox with SMPS power supply gives better performance, but no box reduction.
Could be another direction worth trying, though then the new chakra mono cards directly into Klouts would be my first option.

[Keltik Klown]

(2012-05-30 10:30)mrco99 Wrote:  Or is that a one-box solution?

Yes. The original Keltik Aktiv crossover was a one-box solution as per the original Isobarik Aktiv crossover.

I agree, however, that an SMPS Tunebox with Mono cards would be a worthwhile improvement.

[mrco99]

(2012-05-30 10:41)Keltik Klown Wrote:  

(2012-05-30 10:30)mrco99 Wrote:  Or is that a one-box solution?

Yes. The original Keltik Aktiv crossover was a one-box solution as per the original Isobarik Aktiv crossover.

I agree, however, that an SMPS Tunebox with Mono cards would be a worthwhile improvement.

I see. So that should be quite old, from the beginning of Keltiks.
With an SMPS Tunebox, did anyone ever try them with the chakra cards/adaptors instead of the old mono LK cards?

Maybe off-topic, but a did a tweeter upgrade also not bring improvements?
Or off-off-topic, recapping Klouts, if needed? (don't know if that's audible).

[Keltik Klown]

(2012-05-30 10:47)mrco99 Wrote:  I see. So that should be quite old, from the beginning of Keltiks.

Yes. It's the first and original iteration of crossover for the Keltiks. Mono cards came next (and were revised at least once, possibly twice), then Stereo Cards and Kilmax crossovers and lastly Chakra Aktiv cards.

Quote:With an SMPS Tunebox, did anyone ever try them with the chakra cards/adaptors instead of the old mono LK cards?

It works, and in my opinion except for the Keltik Klimax crossovers it's by far the highest performing option for Keltiks. An SMPS Tunebox with Chakra cards is a huge improvement over the old Mono cards. Note that is has to be the SMPS version of the Tunebox. Chakra cards are not compatible with Tuneboxes that have linear power supplies (they don't supply enough power).

[CJ1045]

Recapping Klouts:
As ever with such things it really depends on the state of the existing capacitors. We have had a lot of Klouts through our business. Occasionally we have had one where the protection circuit kicks in and closes down one channel - sounds dramatic but isn't! In each case the cause has been one or more of the smaller electrolytics being out of tolerance. In such cases we change all the small electrolytics and the amp is restored to full health and sounds very sweet indeed. We also visually inspect (followed up by testing with an ESR meter) the caps on every Klout we buy. If they colour has changed from sky blue to take on a brown tint then we will remove the amp board and replace the caps. We have found some so degraded that they go open circuit and so cease to perform their filtering/smoothing function. Easily tested with an ESR meter but the visual difference is obvious if you don't have an ESR meter. Note that a resistance meter on a multimeter will not help as all capacitors will appear open circuit at DC which is what the multimeter measures. NOTE that we have not yet found any Klouts with the large reservoir caps out of tolerance or visually degraded which is good news as they would be pricey to replace.

CJ

[mrco99]

(2012-05-30 11:37)Keltik Klown Wrote:  Yes. It's the first and original iteration of crossover for the Keltiks. Mono cards came next (and were revised at least once, possibly twice), then Stereo Cards and Klimax crossovers and lastly Chakra Aktiv cards.

Were the cards also getting better with each newer model/revision?
Could the later LK style mono cards, when revised, be better than older ones? I believe the stereo cards which are quite rare, should do rather well but maybe of a good match with 5125/2250 amps.
Chakra cards, being the newest, would possibly be the best, but also claims to have a mid issue reported by some users when partnered with 4200 amps.

Quote:With an SMPS Tunebox, did anyone ever try them with the chakra cards/adaptors instead of the old mono LK cards?

It works, and in my opinion except for the Keltik Klimax crossovers it's by far the highest performing option for Keltiks. An SMPS Tunebox with Chakra cards is a huge improvement over the old Mono cards. Note that is has to be the SMPS version of the Tunebox. Chakra cards are not compatible with Tuneboxes that have linear power supplies (they don't supply enough power).

Does this mean a SMPS Tunebox is even considered an upgrade compared to chakra cards directly placed inside the amp?
From ratio I'd say shorther signal path and less boxes in the chain is better than putting them in a Tunebox.
On the opposite, having the cards isolated with their own power supply may bring the best out of them, like the Klimax Crossovers.

Speaking of the KXOs, are they again a different/enhanched design from the separate stereo/mono cards, or the same generation in a Klimax box?
As the Klimax Crossovers have not really changed since introduction, Linn did not use the newest chakra card incarnation into their XOs, I think?

[Keltik Klown]

(2012-05-30 13:00)mrco99 Wrote:  Could the later LK style mono cards, when revised, be better than older ones?

The consensus is that the later LK Mono cards are better than the early ones. IIRC the bass cards in particular improved a lot.

Quote:I believe the stereo cards which are quite rare, should do rather well but maybe of a good match with 5125/2250 amps.

The stereo cards are certainly perceived as being better than the mono cards, but just how much of this is due to the fact that they operate in later models of Linn amps is, in my personal opinion, open to question.

I suppose it’s a rather unfair comparison, but when once you’ve heard what 5125/2250/Klimax crossovers can do with Keltiks the performance of the stereo cards in these same amps is somewhat disappointing IMHO.

Quote:Chakra cards, being the newest, would possibly be the best, but also claims to have a mid issue reported by some users when partnered with 4200 amps.

I am one of those who have direct experience of this and wrote about it in the forum. It was puzzling, if for no other reason that in all other respects the 4200/Chakra card combination gets really quite close to what the 4200/Klimax crossover combination offers. Others have reported that the mid issue isn’t evident in other setups, e.g. 2200/Chakra cards, but I have no personal experience to offer as confirmation or otherwise of this.

Quote:Does this mean a SMPS Tunebox is even considered an upgrade compared to chakra cards directly placed inside the amp?
From ratio I'd say shorther signal path and less boxes in the chain is better than putting them in a Tunebox.
On the opposite, having the cards isolated with their own power supply may bring the best out of them, like the Klimax Crossovers.

The only reliable way to determine how these various design trade-offs play out in real life to listen to all the options.

Quote:Speaking of the KXOs, are they again a different/enhanched design from the separate stereo/mono cards, or the same generation in a Klimax box?
As the Klimax Crossovers have not really changed since introduction, Linn did not use the newest chakra card incarnation into their XOs, I think?

The Keltik KXO crossover circuit design is unique to the KXOs and I believe it to be different from both the original mono and stereo cards.

The Keltik Chakra bass card is the same design as the Keltik KXO bass section (info provided by DanielE some time ago in the forum). The Chakra mid and treble cards however, are a new design and they are not the same as the mid and treble circuits in the Keltik KXO.

[SaltyDog]

I would look seriously at a Lejonklou Tundra and use it on the midrange. I know what others will say, but most of the music is in the mids. Then try it in other positions. Go from there where your ears tell you.

The KK/1 will make a most worthwhile upgrade. You can see where I went from Keltik/klouts. (but couldn't let them go, so waiting to move one more time. I need music in the living space and next place will have a listening room too.)