Linn Forums

Current time: 2018-06-18, 01:07 Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Linn Forums / Announcements, News and Events / Announcements & Linn News v / Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology

Post Reply 
Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
2017-08-06, 15:24
Post: #111
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
Hi,
During the webinar you mentioned that you were about to publish a new whitepaper comparing the different systems. Is this doc avaialble?
Riccardo
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-16, 19:23
Post: #112
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
(2017-08-06 15:24)zulizu Wrote:  During the webinar you mentioned that you were about to publish a new whitepaper comparing the different systems. Is this doc available?

I think that this is what you are looking for.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10/1 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-17, 17:04
Post: #113
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
Nope, that one is referring to the Klimax DSM. Keith is talking about a further doc ( see https://vimeo.com/130453166 Minute: 21.04) to compare the other systems.

Riccardo
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-17, 19:04 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-17 19:05 by DavidHB.)
Post: #114
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
(2017-08-17 17:04)zulizu Wrote:  Nope, that one is referring to the Klimax DSM. Keith is talking about a further doc ( see https://vimeo.com/130453166 Minute: 21.04) to compare the other systems.

To the best of my recollection, the systems selected for comparison were the KK and the then current KDSM (the two models in the Klimax range up to that point which had preamplifier capabilities). At what time point in the video is a comparison (presumably of the KK) with any other DSM mentioned? It would hardly be a level playing field ...

Be that as it may, I don't think that any relevant document other than the one to which I linked has appeared since the Webinar. If I am wrong, I'd be grateful for a link.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10/1 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-03-23, 12:07 (This post was last modified: 2018-03-23 12:11 by Defender.)
Post: #115
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
mmh I just watched the video after I got my on experience with connecting the Akurate DS/1 directly to my power amps.

I understand all the technical advantages of the DSM - yet what I hear is not matching that.
That might be true for a device which is connected to an input of the DSM. But not if you use the DS functionality of the DSM with DVC.

However people want to use the DS function in the DSM and that should be comparable to what you do with connecting Klimax DS or Akurate DS directly to power amps.

My experience was the soundstage became flat and the sound uninvolving - the sound became kind of boring.

I could only crank up the volume to 60 for the way I am hearing music and I have loudspeakers with low efficiancy and the power amp is set to 26db gain.

I assume the following:
1. it is an impedance matching problem - the output drivers of the DS have a to high impedance.
2. the output voltage of the DS is too high to keep the DVC in areas where it is not lossless

just my two cents - might be only relevant in my system but thats the 3rd reason for a preamp (besides imput switching, volume control) a pre amp also works as impedance matching component

I will keep my pre amp in the chain.

Keith spoke obout a document comparing impedance of the KK with KDSM - however, that doesnt tell the complete story because if you use DS functionality alone you end up having the same situation like connecting a Akurate DS or a Klimate DS directly to a power amp.

Maybe I am mistaken.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-03-23, 21:30 (This post was last modified: 2018-03-23 21:31 by DavidHB.)
Post: #116
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
I think that, if you were to search through the forum, you would find that you are not the only person to hold the views you express about the ADS/1. It is noteworthy that, when Linn brought out the original ADSM (the same generation as the ADS/1), they gave it both the option of an analogue volume control for the analogue inputs and gain presets for the digital outputs (but in the analogue domain).

As an aside, what is clear from the Linn white paper is that it is not the DVC as such that creates the problem; a DVC is just a set of real time arithmetical calculations. Rather, the problem is in the nature of the signal that is fed to the DVC, and whether the calculations will have the effect of truncating the data, so that data is lost with the effect you describe (the so-called 'quantisation' effect). The higher the DVC can be set for any given sound pressure level at the speakers, the less likely is the truncation to occur; hence the use of attenuation. When you use the analogue volume control in your pre-amplifier, the DVC is set to unity gain, which is the best possible case. The ADS does not have the attenuation presets fitted to the ADSM, but Briain on this forum has made a set for his ADS, and reports good results (comparable to what the ADSM provides).

I don't think that Linn has ever published details of the working of any ADS or ADSM that are comparable to the kind of detail about the (then) KDSM that you find in the 2105 white paper. Inevitably in a lower specification product, some of the processes used in and capabilities of the Klimax model will be absent at the Akurate level, with, it seems, quantisation becoming that much more of an issue. When we move on two generations from the ADS/1 to the Katalyst ADS/3, we have both a different and more capable DAC and (of particular relevance in the current context) a more powerful FPGA processor. It will be very interesting to see whether the the comparison you make between your ADS/1 and your preamp still holds good in the current generation.

So your assumption 2 is correct, but your assumption 1 is only partly correct. It is undoubtedly not helpful that the DS has the higher output level specification inherited from the CD player, because attenuation is required by most users to keep the volume control settings in a range (say 60 to 80) where quantisation effects are less likely to be a problem. And, while your conclusion holds good for your current equipment, that may not be the case for later generation ADSs, notably the new ADS/3.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10/1 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-03-24, 08:59
Post: #117
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
David, I am also very much looking forward to the Akurate Katalyst and hope it will change things with playing directly into power amps. But I hope the output stage has also changed for a lower impedance even though I hear what you are saying about what Bri has tried.
My pre is not a special one so I expected a much better outcome with the ADS/1 feeding the power amps directly.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-03-24, 10:31
Post: #118
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
The DVC of your ADS should sound pretty good at volume levels of 60 and up. If you have a full Linn setup and with SO, that is not an unusual listening volume. If your amps have a higher gain, or your speakers are easier to drive, it can be scarely loud and I can understand why you would prefer using an analogue pre.
As David explains, my ADSM can lower the volume analogue by 24dB, so it is only at very low volume that I notice some DVC related issues.
Anyway, with Katalyst that issue will be gone, the higher precision bitrate makes it a lot easier to shift bits into oblivion and achieve a 'losless' lower volume.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-03-24, 12:11
Post: #119
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
(2018-03-24 08:59)Defender Wrote:  My pre is not a special one so I expected a much better outcome with the ADS/1 feeding the power amps directly.

I am less surprised than you are, in all the circumstances described in my previous post. In fact, I wonder whether most of the listening tests during the development of the ADS/1 were done with a pre-amp rather than with the ADS playing direct to a power amp. The changes made when the ADSM was developed (and testing had, by definition, to be done without a separate pre-amp) are, I believe, significant in this regard.

I also remember the very substantial improvement in sound quality when I upgraded my ADSM to the /1 standard (so to the same generation as the ADS/2). Quite a lot of the improvement was due to much better clocking, but at the time there was also a rather unspecific reference to changes made in the DAC circuitry. And for sure, from that point on I don't remember having any issues with the ADSM that could be attributed to quantisation effects. It has certainly, to the best of my knowledge, never been a live issue in my Exakt system with its 'per channel' DACs and much greater processing power. And, IIRC, the KDSM has never had switchable attenuators, so the Linn team must be pretty confident that quantisation is well controlled in the Klimax range.

I'm not sure that I'd go as far as Tin in saying that quantisation will be 'gone' in the ADS/3; we shall have to wait and see on that. I would be very disappointed if quantisation is a live issue at normal listening levels, however. And at very low volume, signal to noise ratio in the analogue domain will, I would guess, be more of an issue than the quantisation effect. But what we need now is for Linn to deliver some product, so that we can do the listening ...

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10/1 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-03-25, 12:06
Post: #120
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
Hi Tin and David,

I really hope you are right with ADS/3.
But I have reasons for not believing the marketing claims somtimes made. I also have heard passive volume controls and never really found them to sound good impressive.
That is the reason I believe also in the impedance matching function of a pre-amp.
The output stage of the Akurate DS right now is about 300Ohm at RCA and if I am not mistaken it makes 600Ohm at XLR - that is high.
Maybe the ones who drive their ADS directly on a preamp are using the RCA outputs.
Lower impedance and also lower output voltage => higher volume setting.

My preamp has a volume control which is not sitting in the signal path and I use it as a 0db preamp - my Pass XA30.5 are working best through XLR connection.

I will try again after my ADS is at Katalyst and keep my fingers crossed that you are right as the only function my pre has right now is volume control.
Nice discussion anyway.
Cheers
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)