Linn Forums

Current time: 2017-12-11, 08:32 Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Linn Forums / Announcements, News and Events / Announcements & Linn News v / Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology

Post Reply 
Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
2015-06-04, 09:09
Post: #21
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
Following the White paper, the LP12 wouldn’t stand a chance against a DS. Even though a listening test with actually music – that's a different story! Wink
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 09:44
Post: #22
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
(2015-06-04 09:01)stunta Wrote:  
(2015-06-04 07:17)macrotech Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 22:38)stunta Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 21:58)macrotech Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 21:16)Donald Wrote:  If you look at the very last section of the White Paper it clearly states:-

"Of course, measurements and engineering analysis can help us understand why something sounds better, but listening is the only way to confirm that it is better. "

So why bother with a white paper at all? Who's it aimed at?

People who want to corroborate subjective impressions with measurements. Probably.

Measurements on 1kHz sine waves have nothing to do with real music buy, hey, corroborate away.

It is a comparison. If at a given frequency, there was a substantial difference in distortion, that would surely be a useful metric now wouldn't it. But if facts are sending chills down one's spine, one might be better of avoiding them.

Eh? The fact that Linn are resorting to white papers to try and justify something is what's sending chills down my spine.

Main: KDS3 / Lejonklou Sagatun Mono Tarandus / Lejonklou Tundra Mono 2 Tarandus / 242 Mk II with upgraded stands
LG OLED 55E6V /Oppo 205 as processor / Lejonklou Tundra Stereo / Katan rears / Velodyne DD12 sub
2nd system: Oppo105 / Lejonklou Boazu / 109s
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 09:47
Post: #23
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
(2015-06-02 11:37)gavinm Wrote:  Keith will also be answering questions on the night, so to make sure we get through as many as possible, if you already have any questions please submit them in advance by posting in this thread.

1/
Please describe the HW and SW implementations of Digital Volume Control in KDS/0, KDS/1, KDS/2 and KDSM/0 and KDSM/1.

2/
If any changes, elaborate on the performance enhancements and reasons behind these

3/
Which unit has the best Digital Volume Control implementation/performance?

4/
Had it been any firmware optimizations of the Digital Volume Control over the years? If so, which firmware versions and what has been optimized.

5/
Same questions as #1 to #4 with regards to the DS implementation and performance.

6/
DS and volume control COMBINED as a unit, which one is the top Linn performer?
(still talking analogue out)


7/
Why wasn't the enhanced DS circuit in KDSM/1 mentioned when released?
(same as the DS/2 got later on)

8/
Linns message is "digital is superior due to better measurements".
Please describe why Linn has changed from the complete opposite view - that has been the message since the CD-technology were introduced in the 80s.

9/
The measurements in the White paper seems to use ONE or many fixed (static) frequencies.
But...music has MANY frequencies and is a dynamic signal.
Why trying to describe performance in music by using measurement that only tell a little bit of the reality.
A real test should mimic the real signal IMHO.

10/
The black box test is not 100% relevant as the source, pre and power amps interact with each other - due to electrical matching (impedance etc) affecting each other.
Likely also the measurement tools has an impact, making measurements results not 100% valid.

A better test approach would be feeding a signal to DS --> KK --> Solo and check the output from Solo. Then compare with same test without a KK.

Still, the only true valid test should be Tune Dem IMHO.

11/
Please describe why enabling Space in DS decrease the musical performance even if NO frequency has been modified in Space?

See you @ http://www.lejonklou.com/forum
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 10:31
Post: #24
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
(2015-06-04 07:17)macrotech Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 22:38)stunta Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 21:58)macrotech Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 21:16)Donald Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 20:59)macrotech Wrote:  Isn't it amazing that Linn are trying to convince us using technical specs rather than "just listening". Just the sort of thing they used to tell us wasn't important.

If you look at the very last section of the White Paper it clearly states:-

"Of course, measurements and engineering analysis can help us understand why something sounds better, but listening is the only way to confirm that it is better. "

So why bother with a white paper at all? Who's it aimed at?

People who want to corroborate subjective impressions with measurements. Probably.

Measurements on 1kHz sine waves have nothing to do with real music buy, hey, corroborate away.
Considering the K-DS and KK in your sig, it's interesting that you question the author(s) of the white paper...or to put it another way, the folks who designed the gear you proudly purport to have in your sig. But hey, since when is consistency a good thing anyway?Rolleyes

Half of what I post on here is not worth reading; but I post it in order that the other half gets posted.
Boring stuff->Linn Blacks->More boring stuff->K400->Even more boring stuff, all layered with Magick Faerie Dust.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 10:39 (This post was last modified: 2015-06-04 10:56 by Briain.)
Post: #25
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
(2015-06-03 20:34)mats@nobox Wrote:  In the white paper "Evolution-of-the-pre-amplifier" I believe I see some distortion from the DSM on the low level 1 mVrms signal in the graph on page 5. If my eyes don't fool me I see distinct 2nd as well as 3rd order products at 2 and 3 kHz respectively and possibly some higher order components as well, that is not mentioned anywhere in the text. Where the Klimax Kontrol does not display any visible distortion artifacts at all.

Sure they are all low level non linearities, but still some 150 times larger compared to the test signal than the clear distortion components you refer to for the higher level signal on page 6.

Why do you not see these components worthy of mentioning in explaining the superiority of the DSM as opposed to the Klimax Kontrol?

Best Regards, Mats

The 3 KHz one is cunningly concealed by all that noise from the KK. Oh hang on, I guess that's the entire point. That said, considering the age of my ears, I'd likely only hear up to that 2 KHz artefact, so maybe I'm best remaining in the noisy, olde worlde, analogue KK realm? Anyhow, I like a bit of noise; IMHO it's not a proper sound system without at least some noise (some mains hum would also be nice; these wretched Dynamik's are far too quiet, for my liking) to more closely emulate the sound of the PA at a live event. You need a bit of noise (and some hum) in your system, not only to let you know that it's all switched on (and that it's actually working), but also to let you know how loud the forthcoming music will likely be; without that, you could get a bit of a fright when the tune starts playing. Whilst on the subject, I also think the logo on power amps should dip when the music gets loud (in time with the drum and bass). I rather miss that feature of my old Naim 250 (back in the olden days, the lamp was fed from the unregulated side of the power supply). Of course, some cynics would argue that the white paper could be truncated down to one showing only a single graph; forecasted sales of KK vs KDSM, but I'd never think anyting like that. Tongue

Sorry, can't resist bringing a bit of 'tongue in cheek' fun to the forum; it has taken many years and cost a small fortune in strong drink to turn me into a cynical, old [and deaf] trouble-stirrer, so I've no intention of changing my tune, now! Tongue Big Grin

Bri

PS Looking forward to the webinar (err, that's assuming I've not just been uninvited)!

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 14:39 (This post was last modified: 2015-06-04 14:49 by HearNoMore.)
Post: #26
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
(2015-06-04 10:31)linnrd Wrote:  
(2015-06-04 07:17)macrotech Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 22:38)stunta Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 21:58)macrotech Wrote:  
(2015-06-03 21:16)Donald Wrote:  If you look at the very last section of the White Paper it clearly states:-

"Of course, measurements and engineering analysis can help us understand why something sounds better, but listening is the only way to confirm that it is better. "

So why bother with a white paper at all? Who's it aimed at?

People who want to corroborate subjective impressions with measurements. Probably.

Measurements on 1kHz sine waves have nothing to do with real music buy, hey, corroborate away.
Considering the K-DS and KK in your sig, it's interesting that you question the author(s) of the white paper...or to put it another way, the folks who designed the gear you proudly purport to have in your sig. But hey, since when is consistency a good thing anyway?Rolleyes

I think the KDS and KK are excellent products, but, having done the demo myself, I question Linn's assertion that the digital volume control sounds better, and their motivations for trying to convince everybody using a white paper, when they used to say that all you needed to do was "Just Listen". So you can roll your eyes all you like, but I'm happy not to be a Linn sheep, who believes everything Linn say, which appears to be your definition of "consistency".

Main: KDS3 / Lejonklou Sagatun Mono Tarandus / Lejonklou Tundra Mono 2 Tarandus / 242 Mk II with upgraded stands
LG OLED 55E6V /Oppo 205 as processor / Lejonklou Tundra Stereo / Katan rears / Velodyne DD12 sub
2nd system: Oppo105 / Lejonklou Boazu / 109s
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 18:03
Post: #27
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
Is this happening as it is now 18:03?

CJ

Main: Michell Orbe/SME V/Lyra Delos/CA 640p Oppo105 Marantz AV8801 Linn 5125 Dynamik Focal Diablo Utopia III Komponent106 Komponent104

Profession: Owner of Krescendo HiFi - Specialist in second hand Linn and Naim
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 18:04
Post: #28
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
Anyone else unable to log-in?

Oak LP12_Lingo1_Kore_Ittok III_nude Akiva | Unidisk 1.1/d | AKtuner
KK/2_AKontrol/0/d_KCT/d {Lejonklou K-200} 212 | 2250/d - 225 | AV5105 - Tukan | Sizmik 10.25 | Intersekt R4S5 | Isol-8 MiniSub Wave {Silvers}
+Technics SL1210s | Urei 1620 | Nakamichi System One | AV5125/d - Katan (Aktiv) | Roomamp 2i
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 18:04
Post: #29
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
18:04
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2015-06-04, 18:04
Post: #30
RE: Linn Forum Webinar: Linn DSM vs. Pre-amplifier Technology
Bear with us, folks - a technical hitch with the webinar software is holding us up. We're working on it...
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)