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Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
2016-04-05, 14:20
Post: #11
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-05 12:39)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2016-04-05 12:05)timster Wrote:  
(2016-04-05 09:32)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2016-04-05 09:19)Donald Wrote:  I asked Philbo the same questions last year in relation to SO+ and driver tolerances for my Keilidhs.

1. Space Optimisation +

"The '+' version has a more complete understanding of what each individual drive unit is adding to the room model - we have a full knowledge of the source. This allows for a better estimate of room modes as well as the potential for more extensive filtering (we are currently looking at ways of extending the capabilities of the Exakt room optimisation system) than would be possible within the constraints of a DS or DSM."

2. Driver tolerances.

" ... we do not have the specific measurements for the drive units in your Keilidhs. Instead we use averaged measurements from the small stock of drive units we have available to us at Linn. On the bright side, assuming a 5% tolerance on the drive units we can assure you that we are removing at least 95% of the phase distortions from your system."

Hope this helps?

I think all of the above is entirely reasonable Donald.

I'm also happy to accept that my Majik 140s, that were built before Exakt existed, are using a generic filter, that's perfectly reasonable.

However, I think the web site is misleading to say that all individual speaker drive units are measured before install, which contradicts the information from the helpline. It needs to say all Akurate and Klimax drive units (if this is true, not sure they actually measure bass drivers on any speaker).

Just had it confirmed that Majik 140s are measured, and this is true since at least 2015/14. So the statement is in fact correct, notwithstanding the date of install. It could clarify and say since 20?? though.

Who has confirmed this Timster? Looks like mixed messages coming out of Linn.

My dealer (Audience), and I remember him saying so at the time I was considering the Exakt route, and hence going ahead in Feb. He spoke to Linn who confirmed my 140s (bought new start of 2015) had been measured and stored in the cloud. He was also told from when this was the case but can't remember exactly. No doubt it's from SN xxxxx. Mine are 1375??? fyi.

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2016-04-06, 10:42
Post: #12
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-05 08:01)Tin Wrote:  Generally speaking I don't trust helplines or people who write content for websites, but I have good experiences with the Linn helpline, and the answer they've given Sunbeam is more complex than 'sure we do', which a clueless helpline would have given.
So, a clueful helpline, giving a complex answer, is way more trustworthy than a few nice sentences on a website.
By comparing the two I feel like letting the Linn helpline down, so for me its a no-brainer; Marketing 0, Helpline 1.
Based on the recent information...Marketing 0, Helpline 0.

The web needs an update, and Helpdesk should be educated.

A better wording can be something like this:
"In speakers manufactured from 201X-XX-XX and serial number XXXXXXXX, Linn measures the electrical characteristics and response of every single drive unit before it is installed in the speaker".

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2016-04-06, 15:38
Post: #13
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-06 10:42)Music Lover Wrote:  
(2016-04-05 08:01)Tin Wrote:  Generally speaking I don't trust helplines or people who write content for websites, but I have good experiences with the Linn helpline, and the answer they've given Sunbeam is more complex than 'sure we do', which a clueless helpline would have given.
So, a clueful helpline, giving a complex answer, is way more trustworthy than a few nice sentences on a website.
By comparing the two I feel like letting the Linn helpline down, so for me its a no-brainer; Marketing 0, Helpline 1.
Based on the recent information...Marketing 0, Helpline 0.

The web needs an update, and Helpdesk should be educated.

A better wording can be something like this:
"In speakers manufactured from 201X-XX-XX and serial number XXXXXXXX, Linn measures the electrical characteristics and response of every single drive unit before it is installed in the speaker".

Hmm, not sure. They are talking about new products after all. Just "since 2014" or whenever would suffice if anything at all.

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2016-04-06, 15:47
Post: #14
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
I can clarify a couple of points raised in this thread - hopefully this will help clear up some of the confusion.

Firstly, thanks for highlighting the wording on the website, we've amended this now to make it clearer. The page quoted describes what happens in an Exakt speaker, i.e. an integrated Exakt speaker that has every drive unit measured and characteristics stored in the cloud. We've now made the text more specific.

In addition we're taking a look at how Exakt is explained in the context of separates systems that could include various flavours and ages of (originally) passive speaker, some of which have specifically measured drive units and some of which use generic values due to various logistical constraints. Please leave that one with us while we work on making this information even clearer.

Secondly, regarding the question of Majik speakers, we do not currently measure and store the response of every drive unit in the Majik range so as Helpline correctly stated, we use generic values for those models in an Exakt set-up. As Philbo has previously stated, this still delivers most of the benefit in terms of removing phase distortion.

Finally, we'll make sure our retailers have correct and up-to-date information on which speakers contain individually measured drive units so everyone's on the same page.

Apologies to timster for the conflicting information coming from different sources about your Majik 140s.
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2016-04-06, 16:09
Post: #15
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
Thank you Gavin.
I'm glad that the helpdesk still gets to score where the dealer and website didn't. Smile
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2016-04-06, 17:20
Post: #16
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
Thanks Gavin, looks like an appropriate set of actions there. I only spotted the one page on the web site, but suspect there will be others and in Linn docs maybe.

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2016-04-06, 17:33
Post: #17
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-06 15:47)gavinm Wrote:  I can clarify a couple of points raised in this thread - hopefully this will help clear up some of the confusion.

<stuff deleted>

Secondly, regarding the question of Majik speakers, we do not currently measure and store the response of every drive unit in the Majik range so as Helpline correctly stated, we use generic values for those models in an Exakt set-up. As Philbo has previously stated, this still delivers most of the benefit in terms of removing phase distortion.

Finally, we'll make sure our retailers have correct and up-to-date information on which speakers contain individually measured drive units so everyone's on the same page.

Apologies to timster for the conflicting information coming from different sources about your Majik 140s.

Well that's a shocker. But I'm calm now.

At the end of the day, I love how my system sounds but, psychosomatic though it may be, I hope this won't distract from my enjoyment knowing my system isn't actually as perfect as I thought it would be had my units been measured (as I had been told).
So could I please have some answers to some pertinent questions regarding this.

From an earlier post
Quote:1. Space Optimisation +

"The '+' version has a more complete understanding of what each individual drive unit is adding to the room model - we have a full knowledge of the source. This allows for a better estimate of room modes as well as the potential for more extensive filtering (we are currently looking at ways of extending the capabilities of the Exakt room optimisation system) than would be possible within the constraints of a DS or DSM."

2. Driver tolerances.

" ... we do not have the specific measurements for the drive units in your Keilidhs. Instead we use averaged measurements from the small stock of drive units we have available to us at Linn. On the bright side, assuming a 5% tolerance on the drive units we can assure you that we are removing at least 95% of the phase distortions from your system."

With reference to point 2, how is the generic model arrived at for "new" Majiks (as opposed to averaged from stock for obsolete models)?
And why aren't they measured in the first place. The point of Exaktboxes is to apply the "keep it digital" concept as far as possible, and I understand the benefits of digital crossovers etc. with regard to noise and loss and distortion, but constraining Majiks to a generic model when they are available for measurement seems to be defeating at least part of the point, and for no obvious good reason.
In my case, can it be said I am getting 95% (or better) of the benefit had they been measured? And can I have an actual value?

And with reference to point 1, how does a generic model of the drive units impact on this "full knowledge" and what is the detriment in comparison to measured units (in percentage terms)?

I may have more later as I think of them.

I'm not angry, just disappointed.

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2016-04-06, 17:57
Post: #18
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
I understand that you feel robbed, but you bought a system that sounded great yesterday, and still does.
I'm an IT guy and my strength is that I don't let 'facts' get in the way of what I perceive.
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2016-04-06, 18:12
Post: #19
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-06 17:33)timster Wrote:  And why aren't they measured in the first place.

I think you'll find it has a lot to do with keeping to a particular retail price target.

There'll be more margin to play with in Akurate and Klimax ranges to fund the measurement of each drive unit. Even in these ranges, I'm not sure all the drivers get measured - my memory isn't what it used to be, but I seem to recall that bass drivers are not measured, but this could be a memory error Smile

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2016-04-06, 18:26
Post: #20
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-06 18:12)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2016-04-06 17:33)timster Wrote:  And why aren't they measured in the first place.

I think you'll find it has a lot to do with keeping to a particular retail price target.

There'll be more margin to play with in Akurate and Klimax ranges to fund the measurement of each drive unit. Even in these ranges, I'm not sure all the drivers get measured - my memory isn't what it used to be, but I seem to recall that bass drivers are not measured, but this could be a memory error Smile
Your memory is correct. I don't know the Kurrent situation, but I read multiple times that only the 3K arrays (of the 212 and 242 Mk2s) were measured -and- that it was done to accomodate for Aktiv setups.
I doubt that they measured much more then a preferable value for the gain in an Aktiv setup, as it won't pay to measure and store data you can't do anything with.
And they certainly didn't measure anything for the Mk1 versions of the 3k arrays.
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