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Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
2016-04-07, 09:26
Post: #21
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
Perhaps my previous should have been a PM to Gavin.

But from my point of view, the Majik family is misleading. 1. there is a Majik Exaktbox and yet the Majik speakers aren't measured, and 2. Konfig requires SNs for 140s which to any reasonable person would imply something specific to those actual speakers was required.

And at the end of day, although yes my system sounds as good as it did yesterday, it is actually only 95% as good as I thought it would be.

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2016-04-07, 10:33 (This post was last modified: 2016-04-07 10:33 by sunbeamgls.)
Post: #22
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
Serial numbers can indicate a model variant I guess, as much as an individual speaker. This will make sure that the filters applied are correct against the average for that variant.

Not so applicable to M140 as such (although I note that the filters for my M140s are v2.0) but for other speakers that went through an evolution (e.g. 3 different tweeters in Keilidhs, plus the 038 upgrades), knowing which range of serial numbers are applicable is still relevant to getting a good result.

I agree though, the marketing and messaging has been misleading and needs to be sorted out. Its about trust.

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2016-04-07, 10:41
Post: #23
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-06 17:33)timster Wrote:  From an earlier post
Quote:2. Driver tolerances.

" ... we do not have the specific measurements for the drive units in your Keilidhs. Instead we use averaged measurements from the small stock of drive units we have available to us at Linn. On the bright side, assuming a 5% tolerance on the drive units we can assure you that we are removing at least 95% of the phase distortions from your system."

With reference to point 2, how is the generic model arrived at for "new" Majiks (as opposed to averaged from stock for obsolete models)?
And why aren't they measured in the first place. The point of Exaktboxes is to apply the "keep it digital" concept as far as possible, and I understand the benefits of digital crossovers etc. with regard to noise and loss and distortion, but constraining Majiks to a generic model when they are available for measurement seems to be defeating at least part of the point, and for no obvious good reason.

There is a good reason for not measuring Majik speakers, and as sunbeam pointed out, the reason is cost. To perform the necessary measurements during production the Majik speakers would need to be built in an Aktiv configuration, measured, converted to passive operation, re-tested, packed and shipped. This would add significantly to the build time and thus the retail cost. The majority of Majik speakers we sell stay in passive configuration for their lifetime so we would be adding cost unnecessarily for the majority of our Majik speaker customers.

(2016-04-06 17:33)timster Wrote:  In my case, can it be said I am getting 95% (or better) of the benefit had they been measured? And can I have an actual value?

It is impossible for me to give you an actual value as your speakers have not been measured.

I have previously stated (as quoted above) that your speakers will be at least 95% free of phase distortion. This is based on a manufacturing tolerance of 5% for the drive units used in Majik loudspeakers, anything more than 5% off standard is rejected and will not be used in production.

It should be noted that manufacturing tolerance typically follows a normal distribution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation), so the vast majority of drive units (94.7%) will be within 2.5% of the production ideal. The upshot is that you will actually be very unlucky if your speakers are any less than 97.5% free of phase distortion. Compare this to 0% free of phase distortion you will get from virtually any other loudspeaker on the market you are in a pretty good place...


(2016-04-06 17:33)timster Wrote:  From an earlier post
Quote:1. Space Optimisation +

"The '+' version has a more complete understanding of what each individual drive unit is adding to the room model - we have a full knowledge of the source. This allows for a better estimate of room modes as well as the potential for more extensive filtering (we are currently looking at ways of extending the capabilities of the Exakt room optimisation system) than would be possible within the constraints of a DS or DSM."

And with reference to point 1, how does a generic model of the drive units impact on this "full knowledge" and what is the detriment in comparison to measured units (in percentage terms)?

The benefit of SPACE optimisation+ over its non-Exakt counterpart varies depending on whether a crossover point lies near to the frequency region in which we treat room modes. In the SPACE optimisation room mode model (non Exakt) all bass sources are considered to reproduce the full bass spectrum at their given location in the room. In SPACE optimisation+ the actual frequency response of each drive unit (or the target response for un-measured drive units) is included in the model along with the physical locations of the units.

The upper bass of the Majik 140, in its Exakt form, rolls-on at 75 Hz with a 4th order filter slope. So in SPACE optimisation+ the upper bass will provide some input to the room mode model, but significantly less than in the SPACE optimisation model where the drive unit is assumed to produce energy down to subsonic frequencies. The difference between the two models will result in a much better estimate of the room mode response from the SPACE optimisation+ model for the Majik 140.

Given the likely tolerance of +/- 2.5% discussed above your Majik 140 upper bass will actually roll-on between 73.125 Hz and 76.875 Hz, so SPACE optimisation+ assuming 75 Hz is not too far off the mark. When you then consider that both variants of SPACE optimisation provide an estimate of the room modes in the listening position, based on user input of room dimensions and construction (only two options plus an unknown), the small variance in roll-on frequency can be quite happily ignored as insignificant.

With regard to the quality of the estimate provide by both forms of SPACE optimisation, the biggest limiting factors to their accuracy are non-regular room geometry, and pertinence of the absorption/transmission characteristics of the construction materials compared to the actual construction of the room. We are working hard to improve upon both of these factors and these improvements will roll-out over time.

(2016-04-06 17:33)timster Wrote:  I'm not angry, just disappointed.

Hopefully the details above will help to re-assure and reduce any disappointment you feel. You still have one of the finest music reproduction systems on the market. If in doubt, just sit down and enjoy some music...

Phil.
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2016-04-07, 10:55
Post: #24
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 10:41)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  There is a good reason for not measuring Majik speakers, and as sunbeam pointed out, the reason is cost. To perform the necessary measurements during production the Majik speakers would need to be built in an Aktiv configuration, measured, converted to passive operation, re-tested, packed and shipped. This would add significantly to the build time and thus the retail cost. The majority of Majik speakers we sell stay in passive configuration for their lifetime so we would be adding cost unnecessarily for the majority of our Majik speaker customers.

Seems to me there is a Marketing opportunity here that allows the buyer the option to have his/her drivers measured - what % increase in the retail cost are we talking about?

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2016-04-07, 11:17
Post: #25
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 10:55)Donald Wrote:  Seems to me there is a Marketing opportunity here that allows the buyer the option to have his/her drivers measured - what % increase in the retail cost are we talking about?

There would be a cost, but it is difficult to quantify. A big problem (in any manufacturing situation) is that more variants of a build lead to more mistakes in production. A production manager will always try to reduce the number of variants his line is required to produce, and rightly so.

There are alternatives to measuring in production, and we have looked at a few. The question that keeps getting raised is the value in doing anything differently. How much more will a Majik customer pay for a very small improvement in performance? We know our industry is based on a model of diminishing returns and at some point a decision has to made as to what represents value. This decision will always be open to contention.

Phil.
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2016-04-07, 11:35 (This post was last modified: 2016-04-07 11:38 by Tin.)
Post: #26
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 10:55)Donald Wrote:  
(2016-04-07 10:41)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  There is a good reason for not measuring Majik speakers, and as sunbeam pointed out, the reason is cost. To perform the necessary measurements during production the Majik speakers would need to be built in an Aktiv configuration, measured, converted to passive operation, re-tested, packed and shipped. This would add significantly to the build time and thus the retail cost. The majority of Majik speakers we sell stay in passive configuration for their lifetime so we would be adding cost unnecessarily for the majority of our Majik speaker customers.

Seems to me there is a Marketing opportunity here that allows the buyer the option to have his/her drivers measured - what % increase in the retail cost are we talking about?

As Bilbo describes it, the only measurements that are being done are relative volume comparisons. So, in a 2K array, or 3K mk1, one of the tweeters might be 1dB too loud or soft, compared to the others.
In an Aktiv setup you can use the measurements to change the gain of the individual tweeter. I don't think you can change the gain on the Majik Exaktbox (I can't see gain screws on the backside) but you could if you connect it to a x100 or x200 amplifier.

Testing the gain of the individual tweeters yourself wouldn't be to difficult, using a set of testtones and a iphoney, but without having amps to do something with those measurements it will only lead to anxiety I guess if there is an irregularity.

My unmeasured Aktiv 212s sound great without changing the gain, for my previous Aktiv 110s I had to lower the tweeter by 2dB, but I think that could be caused by the 110 design instead of the specific 2K arrays.


Edit: while I was writing this Philbo wrote a complete essay, so I guess this response is already outdated.
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2016-04-07, 11:50
Post: #27
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
Thank you Phil. Although I don't understand most of the Space+ things, I am satisfied that the improvement to my speakers through the Majik Exakt is still extremely good.

The extra cost of going down the series 5 route (which was one of my options at the time but was enough to have meant I would have had to delay for quite some time) is probably more than the benefit of 140s being measured (if that makes sense), so I'm still very happy.

But I agree with sunbeam, it isn't at all clear that that is the situation. For example, I presume the requirement in Exakt for SNs is, as already said, to do with batch testing or something similar? Otherwise it is still misleading to have to supply them for 140s.

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2016-04-07, 12:01 (This post was last modified: 2016-05-18 08:13 by Phil Budd (Philbo).)
Post: #28
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 11:50)timster Wrote:  For example, I presume the requirement in Exakt for SNs is, as already said, to do with batch testing or something similar? Otherwise it is still misleading to have to supply them for 140s.

One reason for requesting serial numbers is to cover ourselves for possibilities in the future. We have discussed the possibility (in house) of producing an 'in the field' measurement system. If this came to fruition your speakers would be measured and the measurements stored against your serial numbers. Konfig could then pull measured data from the cloud for your speakers. If we never asked you to enter serial numbers this could never happen.

Please note, I am not saying this will happen, but at least we have a mechanism in place should it happen.

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2016-04-07, 12:03
Post: #29
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 12:01)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  
(2016-04-07 11:50)timster Wrote:  For example, I presume the requirement in Exakt for SNs is, as already said, to do with batch testing or something similar? Otherwise it is still misleading to have to supply them for 140s.

One reason for requesting serial numbers is to cover ourselves for possibilities in the future. We have discussed the possibility (in house) of producing an 'in the filed' measurement system. If this came to fruition your speakers would be measured and the measurements stored against your serial numbers. Konfig could then pull measured data from the cloud for your speakers. If we never asked you to enter serial numbers this could never happen.

Please note, I am not saying this will happen, but at least we have a mechanism in place should it happen.

Phil.

That would be interesting if it did! And that could also go into the marketing etc. so that folks are aware.

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2016-04-07, 12:49 (This post was last modified: 2016-04-07 16:18 by Rudi64.)
Post: #30
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
Recently i discover that the dealer enter the wrong serialnr. In konfig..small letters...Wink
Instead 52 he Enter 62 as last figures...when i changed that there was a improvement about timing ,placing, more fluid sound....
To me its was audible..strange...

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