Linn Forums

Current time: 2017-12-17, 05:10 Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Linn Forums / Meta / Linn Website Feedback v / Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?

Post Reply 
Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
2016-04-07, 13:51
Post: #31
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 10:41)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  1. Space Optimisation +

"The '+' version has a more complete understanding of what each individual drive unit is adding to the room model - we have a full knowledge of the source. This allows for a better estimate of room modes as well as the potential for more extensive filtering (we are currently looking at ways of extending the capabilities of the Exakt room optimisation system) than would be possible within the constraints of a DS or DSM."

The benefit of SPACE optimisation+ over its non-Exakt counterpart varies depending on whether a crossover point lies near to the frequency region in which we treat room modes. In the SPACE optimisation room mode model (non Exakt) all bass sources are considered to reproduce the full bass spectrum at their given location in the room. In SPACE optimisation+ the actual frequency response of each drive unit (or the target response for un-measured drive units) is included in the model along with the physical locations of the units.

The upper bass of the Majik 140, in its Exakt form, rolls-on at 75 Hz with a 4th order filter slope. So in SPACE optimisation+ the upper bass will provide some input to the room mode model, but significantly less than in the SPACE optimisation model where the drive unit is assumed to produce energy down to subsonic frequencies. The difference between the two models will result in a much better estimate of the room mode response from the SPACE optimisation+ model for the Majik 140.

Given the likely tolerance of +/- 2.5% discussed above your Majik 140 upper bass will actually roll-on between 73.125 Hz and 76.875 Hz, so SPACE optimisation+ assuming 75 Hz is not too far off the mark. When you then consider that both variants of SPACE optimisation provide an estimate of the room modes in the listening position, based on user input of room dimensions and construction (only two options plus an unknown), the small variance in roll-on frequency can be quite happily ignored as insignificant.

Phil.

Thanks for further information Phil, its great to have input from yourself and the likes of Murray, Gavin and Keith on the forum.

Perhaps it would be quicker for Linn to document everything comprehensively rather than dealing with lots of little revelations and realisations.

As to your comments above, I can atest to the effectiveness of SPACE+ compared to SPACE. Moving from Klimax passive to Akurate EXAKT with my M140s resulted in a SPACE+ optimisation curve set that has needed only a tiny tweak (I ended up with a 100Hz and below +1.5 bass shelf). With SPACE, I had most of the notches reduced to between 50% and 66% of the calculated notch depth.

Main: AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AExaktbox10; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, AVSeKretan
www.audiophilemusings.co.uk
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-07, 17:06
Post: #32
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 12:49)Rudi64 Wrote:  Recently i discover that the dealer enter the wrong serialnr. In konfig..small letters...Wink
Instead 52 he Enter 62 as last figures...when i changed that there was a improvement about timing ,placing, more fluid sound....
To me its was audible..strange...

From what's been said, that is a mystery. It shouldn't have made any difference....

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-07, 17:21
Post: #33
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 17:06)timster Wrote:  
(2016-04-07 12:49)Rudi64 Wrote:  Recently i discover that the dealer enter the wrong serialnr. In konfig..small letters...Wink
Instead 52 he Enter 62 as last figures...when i changed that there was a improvement about timing ,placing, more fluid sound....
To me its was audible..strange...

From what's been said, that is a mystery. It shouldn't have made any difference....

I can think of two explanations;
-if the serial number was of another type of speaker and Konfig overrides the given speakertype with the serial nr one.
-when the wrong serial was given it defaults to a generic speaker.


Software contains errors, and this could just be one of those.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-07, 17:33 (This post was last modified: 2016-04-07 17:33 by Rudi64.)
Post: #34
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 17:21)Tin Wrote:  
(2016-04-07 17:06)timster Wrote:  
(2016-04-07 12:49)Rudi64 Wrote:  Recently i discover that the dealer enter the wrong serialnr. In konfig..small letters...Wink
Instead 52 he Enter 62 as last figures...when i changed that there was a improvement about timing ,placing, more fluid sound....
To me its was audible..strange...

From what's been said, that is a mystery. It shouldn't have made any difference....

I can think of two explanations;
-if the serial number was of another type of speaker and Konfig overrides the given speakertype with the serial nr one.
-when the wrong serial was given it defaults to a generic speaker.


Software contains errors, and this could just be one of those.

The wrong serialnrs. appears to be also of M140..
When changing the serialnrs. konfig started to update the binary date or something like that..
I notice also after the latest update konfig and firmware it sounded a bit worse..
Like you say, it could be a software problem.
But it was clear to me something changed for the better now..

MDSM/2 - Majik Exaktbox-I - Akudoriks
K400 speakercable.

Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 00:38
Post: #35
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 17:21)Tin Wrote:  
(2016-04-07 17:06)timster Wrote:  
(2016-04-07 12:49)Rudi64 Wrote:  Recently i discover that the dealer enter the wrong serialnr. In konfig..small letters...Wink
Instead 52 he Enter 62 as last figures...when i changed that there was a improvement about timing ,placing, more fluid sound....
To me its was audible..strange...

From what's been said, that is a mystery. It shouldn't have made any difference....

I can think of two explanations;
-if the serial number was of another type of speaker and Konfig overrides the given speakertype with the serial nr one.
-when the wrong serial was given it defaults to a generic speaker.


Software contains errors, and this could just be one of those.
If it allows entry for a different speaker, then there's a pretty fundamental error in coding that doesn't trap errors for out of range data. Suggesting something like that without confirming...even in passing...makes for pretty bad press.

Half of what I post on here is not worth reading; but I post it in order that the other half gets posted.
Boring stuff->Linn Blacks->More boring stuff->K400->Even more boring stuff, all layered with Magick Faerie Dust.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 00:49
Post: #36
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-07 10:41)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  1. Space Optimisation +
The benefit of SPACE optimisation+ over its non-Exakt counterpart varies depending on whether a crossover point lies near to the frequency region in which we treat room modes. In the SPACE optimisation room mode model (non Exakt) all bass sources are considered to reproduce the full bass spectrum at their given location in the room. In SPACE optimisation+ the actual frequency response of each drive unit (or the target response for un-measured drive units) is included in the model along with the physical locations of the units.

The upper bass of the Majik 140, in its Exakt form, rolls-on at 75 Hz with a 4th order filter slope. So in SPACE optimisation+ the upper bass will provide some input to the room mode model, but significantly less than in the SPACE optimisation model where the drive unit is assumed to produce energy down to subsonic frequencies. The difference between the two models will result in a much better estimate of the room mode response from the SPACE optimisation+ model for the Majik 140.

Given the likely tolerance of +/- 2.5% discussed above your Majik 140 upper bass will actually roll-on between 73.125 Hz and 76.875 Hz, so SPACE optimisation+ assuming 75 Hz is not too far off the mark. When you then consider that both variants of SPACE optimisation provide an estimate of the room modes in the listening position, based on user input of room dimensions and construction (only two options plus an unknown), the small variance in roll-on frequency can be quite happily ignored as insignificant.

Phil.
So...what you're saying implies that there for a large room (e.g. such as one of mine where the room mode is at ca. 23Hz) it pretty much makes no difference at all AFA the two go. Am I correct in understanding this, Phil?

Half of what I post on here is not worth reading; but I post it in order that the other half gets posted.
Boring stuff->Linn Blacks->More boring stuff->K400->Even more boring stuff, all layered with Magick Faerie Dust.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 00:54
Post: #37
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-05 14:20)timster Wrote:  My dealer (Audience), and I remember him saying so at the time I was considering the Exakt route, and hence going ahead in Feb. He spoke to Linn who confirmed my 140s (bought new start of 2015) had been measured and stored in the cloud. He was also told from when this was the case but can't remember exactly. No doubt it's from SN xxxxx. Mine are 1375??? fyi.
Being as this has now been determined to be completely incorrect, I wonder what recourse a customer would have, since...fundamentally, this is a gross misrepresentation of the very basic premise upon which the system was purchased...even being named and marketed as EXaKt. Interesting to see who would legally be left holding the bag on this one.

Half of what I post on here is not worth reading; but I post it in order that the other half gets posted.
Boring stuff->Linn Blacks->More boring stuff->K400->Even more boring stuff, all layered with Magick Faerie Dust.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 01:00
Post: #38
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-06 18:12)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2016-04-06 17:33)timster Wrote:  And why aren't they measured in the first place.

I think you'll find it has a lot to do with keeping to a particular retail price target.

There'll be more margin to play with in Akurate and Klimax ranges to fund the measurement of each drive unit. Even in these ranges, I'm not sure all the drivers get measured - my memory isn't what it used to be, but I seem to recall that bass drivers are not measured, but this could be a memory error Smile
Are you sure that even the Akurate drive units are individually measured? I seem to have missed the post where Linn explicitly states that. There is a post indicating that Majik drive units aren't individually measured but it doesn't go so far as to say that the Akurate are. While there may not be any Majik on display, let's hope there isn't any sleight of hand at play.

Half of what I post on here is not worth reading; but I post it in order that the other half gets posted.
Boring stuff->Linn Blacks->More boring stuff->K400->Even more boring stuff, all layered with Magick Faerie Dust.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 06:35
Post: #39
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
Linnrd; there has been confirmation in other posts, and in my mailbox from the helpdesk as well, that 3K arrays mk2 have been measured individually, for Aktiv setups.
If you unscrew a 3K array you should find a couple of numbers written on them, that confirm the optimal gain settings.

I really don't think starting about legal issues will help this discussion, nor the willingness from Linns side to open up a little. Do you want to understand how things work or do you have axes to grind? With you I never feel sure about which it is.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 07:27 (This post was last modified: 2016-04-08 07:46 by linnrd.)
Post: #40
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 06:35)Tin Wrote:  Linnrd; there has been confirmation in other posts, and in my mailbox from the helpdesk as well, that 3K arrays mk2 have been measured individually, for Aktiv setups.
If you unscrew a 3K array you should find a couple of numbers written on them, that confirm the optimal gain settings.

I really don't think starting about legal issues will help this discussion, nor the willingness from Linns side to open up a little. Do you want to understand how things work or do you have axes to grind? With you I never feel sure about which it is.
Two separate posts, two separate points. One was in response to what Timster was told, one a question to sate my curiosity. What on earth has recorded gain settings to do with phase deviations of the drivers? If you read back, some of the discussion also involves the bass drivers, so I was also referring to more than the 3k array, which you seem to have either ignored or missed in your response with the teaser about your mailbox contents. I don't need to grind any axes; I like to have a well-maintained edge always - no matter what tool I keep on hand...it's just safe working practise.Smile

To clear up any miscommunication, basically, if someone has an old set of 242 or Akubarik passives, and one gets an Exaktbox with the suitable amps, what's the deal with the measurements for all the drivers? Even the SO page is inconsistent with the information regarding these two models, as you may see from the link. Can you link to a post with explicit information?

PS: Links would be helpful when referring to 'other posts' as you have above.

Half of what I post on here is not worth reading; but I post it in order that the other half gets posted.
Boring stuff->Linn Blacks->More boring stuff->K400->Even more boring stuff, all layered with Magick Faerie Dust.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)