Linn Forums

Current time: 2017-12-12, 09:15 Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Linn Forums / Meta / Linn Website Feedback v / Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?

Post Reply 
Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
2016-04-08, 08:04 (This post was last modified: 2016-04-08 08:06 by timster.)
Post: #41
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 00:54)linnrd Wrote:  
(2016-04-05 14:20)timster Wrote:  My dealer (Audience), and I remember him saying so at the time I was considering the Exakt route, and hence going ahead in Feb. He spoke to Linn who confirmed my 140s (bought new start of 2015) had been measured and stored in the cloud. He was also told from when this was the case but can't remember exactly. No doubt it's from SN xxxxx. Mine are 1375??? fyi.
Being as this has now been determined to be completely incorrect, I wonder what recourse a customer would have, since...fundamentally, this is a gross misrepresentation of the very basic premise upon which the system was purchased...even being named and marketed as EXaKt. Interesting to see who would legally be left holding the bag on this one.

I did wonder about this. Not a full blown legal argument but some recourse/good will gesture because as you say, it was a misrepresentation.

I am still pondering the matter.

(2016-04-08 07:27)linnrd Wrote:  
(2016-04-08 06:35)Tin Wrote:  Linnrd; there has been confirmation in other posts, and in my mailbox from the helpdesk as well, that 3K arrays mk2 have been measured individually, for Aktiv setups.
If you unscrew a 3K array you should find a couple of numbers written on them, that confirm the optimal gain settings.

I really don't think starting about legal issues will help this discussion, nor the willingness from Linns side to open up a little. Do you want to understand how things work or do you have axes to grind? With you I never feel sure about which it is.
Two separate posts, two separate points. One was in response to what Timster was told, one a question to sate my curiosity. What on earth has recorded gain settings to do with phase deviations of the drivers? If you read back, some of the discussion also involves the bass drivers, so I was also referring to more than the 3k array, which you seem to have either ignored or missed in your response with the teaser about your mailbox contents. I don't need to grind any axes; I like to have a well-maintained edge always - no matter what tool I keep on hand...it's just safe working practise.Smile

To clear up any miscommunication, basically, if someone has an old set of 242 or Akubarik passives, and one gets an Exaktbox with the suitable amps, what's the deal with the measurements for all the drivers? Even the SO page is inconsistent with the information regarding these two models, as you may see from the link. Can you link to a post with explicit information?

PS: Links would be helpful when referring to 'other posts' as you have above.

Thank Linnrd, I remember that link and the "Speakers measured for Space Optimisation" in conjunction with the Majik 140* (SPACE+ compatible) lead me to believe what I did.

So I am even more pondering.

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 08:50
Post: #42
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 07:27)linnrd Wrote:  
(2016-04-08 06:35)Tin Wrote:  Linnrd; there has been confirmation in other posts, and in my mailbox from the helpdesk as well, that 3K arrays mk2 have been measured individually, for Aktiv setups.
If you unscrew a 3K array you should find a couple of numbers written on them, that confirm the optimal gain settings.

I really don't think starting about legal issues will help this discussion, nor the willingness from Linns side to open up a little. Do you want to understand how things work or do you have axes to grind? With you I never feel sure about which it is.
Two separate posts, two separate points. One was in response to what Timster was told, one a question to sate my curiosity. What on earth has recorded gain settings to do with phase deviations of the drivers? If you read back, some of the discussion also involves the bass drivers, so I was also referring to more than the 3k array, which you seem to have either ignored or missed in your response with the teaser about your mailbox contents. I don't need to grind any axes; I like to have a well-maintained edge always - no matter what tool I keep on hand...it's just safe working practise.Smile

To clear up any miscommunication, basically, if someone has an old set of 242 or Akubarik passives, and one gets an Exaktbox with the suitable amps, what's the deal with the measurements for all the drivers? Even the SO page is inconsistent with the information regarding these two models, as you may see from the link. Can you link to a post with explicit information?

PS: Links would be helpful when referring to 'other posts' as you have above.
I know there is a difference between phase deviations and gain settings, but I don't know if Linn have been keeping track of those, or perhaps other undisclosed settings as well, before they started with Exakt. The only thing I know is that they did write down the gain settings for the drivers in 3K arrays as from the Mk2. For normal Aktiv cards there is no gain (sorry) in recording phase deviations, so I suppose they didn't.
Until Philbo started about phase deviations I thought that that was all they did.

The reason I asked Linn about the gain settings was that I only found out about the existence of gain settings a year or so after I made my komponents Aktiv and I started to think about 3K speakers. I'm terrible at hearing an issue and being able to figure out what is wrong, and I didn't want to struggle with that again. The helpdesk confirmed that the Mk2s have an edge when setting them up, but also said that for most 3Ks the default settings work like a charm, so that I needn't worry about buying Mk1s.
Which I didn't, and they were fine.

I think these posts like these brought me to mailing Linn about it;
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.p...396&page=2
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/archive/inde...25989.html

As about the axes, if you want to lure someone in giving information, showing your axe might not give the best results. It's up to you what you do, but I usually get better results with being nice. I have some experiences with using lawyers and although they were useful, I never got free information from the other parties afterwards. Linn is not required to write whitepapers, if they keep the marketing department on a short lease and just say 'decide for yourself what you think' they'd be fine.
That's not what you'd want.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 09:02
Post: #43
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 08:04)timster Wrote:  
(2016-04-08 00:54)linnrd Wrote:  
(2016-04-05 14:20)timster Wrote:  My dealer (Audience), and I remember him saying so at the time I was considering the Exakt route, and hence going ahead in Feb. He spoke to Linn who confirmed my 140s (bought new start of 2015) had been measured and stored in the cloud. He was also told from when this was the case but can't remember exactly. No doubt it's from SN xxxxx. Mine are 1375??? fyi.
Being as this has now been determined to be completely incorrect, I wonder what recourse a customer would have, since...fundamentally, this is a gross misrepresentation of the very basic premise upon which the system was purchased...even being named and marketed as EXaKt. Interesting to see who would legally be left holding the bag on this one.

I did wonder about this. Not a full blown legal argument but some recourse/good will gesture because as you say, it was a misrepresentation.

I am still pondering the matter.

(2016-04-08 07:27)linnrd Wrote:  
(2016-04-08 06:35)Tin Wrote:  Linnrd; there has been confirmation in other posts, and in my mailbox from the helpdesk as well, that 3K arrays mk2 have been measured individually, for Aktiv setups.
If you unscrew a 3K array you should find a couple of numbers written on them, that confirm the optimal gain settings.

I really don't think starting about legal issues will help this discussion, nor the willingness from Linns side to open up a little. Do you want to understand how things work or do you have axes to grind? With you I never feel sure about which it is.
Two separate posts, two separate points. One was in response to what Timster was told, one a question to sate my curiosity. What on earth has recorded gain settings to do with phase deviations of the drivers? If you read back, some of the discussion also involves the bass drivers, so I was also referring to more than the 3k array, which you seem to have either ignored or missed in your response with the teaser about your mailbox contents. I don't need to grind any axes; I like to have a well-maintained edge always - no matter what tool I keep on hand...it's just safe working practise.Smile

To clear up any miscommunication, basically, if someone has an old set of 242 or Akubarik passives, and one gets an Exaktbox with the suitable amps, what's the deal with the measurements for all the drivers? Even the SO page is inconsistent with the information regarding these two models, as you may see from the link. Can you link to a post with explicit information?

PS: Links would be helpful when referring to 'other posts' as you have above.

Thank Linnrd, I remember that link and the "Speakers measured for Space Optimisation" in conjunction with the Majik 140* (SPACE+ compatible) lead me to believe what I did.

So I am even more pondering.
Stop pondering, just enjoy your music. As of yesterday I know that bass reflex designs have a slight hickup and as going Exakt to stop that specific hickup would cost me over 10k (for my specific setup) I decided I can't give a damn.
There are different ways to enjoy music, and as long as you and I are way below Klimax (or other brands in the same price range) level, we will have to live with shortcuts and approximations. This is not a bad thing as that saves money for other hobbies, like paying a mortgage etc. Smile

If you want it all, rob a bank or marry Linnrd or Paulsurround. I prefer my current setup to these options. Smile
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 09:03 (This post was last modified: 2016-04-08 09:05 by Phil Budd (Philbo).)
Post: #44
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 00:49)linnrd Wrote:  
(2016-04-07 10:41)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  1. Space Optimisation +
The benefit of SPACE optimisation+ over its non-Exakt counterpart varies depending on whether a crossover point lies near to the frequency region in which we treat room modes. In the SPACE optimisation room mode model (non Exakt) all bass sources are considered to reproduce the full bass spectrum at their given location in the room. In SPACE optimisation+ the actual frequency response of each drive unit (or the target response for un-measured drive units) is included in the model along with the physical locations of the units.

The upper bass of the Majik 140, in its Exakt form, rolls-on at 75 Hz with a 4th order filter slope. So in SPACE optimisation+ the upper bass will provide some input to the room mode model, but significantly less than in the SPACE optimisation model where the drive unit is assumed to produce energy down to subsonic frequencies. The difference between the two models will result in a much better estimate of the room mode response from the SPACE optimisation+ model for the Majik 140.

Given the likely tolerance of +/- 2.5% discussed above your Majik 140 upper bass will actually roll-on between 73.125 Hz and 76.875 Hz, so SPACE optimisation+ assuming 75 Hz is not too far off the mark. When you then consider that both variants of SPACE optimisation provide an estimate of the room modes in the listening position, based on user input of room dimensions and construction (only two options plus an unknown), the small variance in roll-on frequency can be quite happily ignored as insignificant.

Phil.
So...what you're saying implies that there for a large room (e.g. such as one of mine where the room mode is at ca. 23Hz) it pretty much makes no difference at all AFA the two go. Am I correct in understanding this, Phil?

At 23 Hz, for a speaker with a single bass driver, correct. For the 140 the models in SPACE optimisation and SPACE optimisation+ will be rather different due to the SPACE optimisation+ model including the target acoustic output of each bass source. So the non-Exakt estimate will assume both bass drivers are contributing to the room mode, whereas the Exakt estimate the room mode will have significantly less contribution from the upper bass driver.

Also, large rooms tend to have more than one mode...

Phil.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 09:55
Post: #45
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
I raised this thread in a collaborative spirit to help customers understand and for Linn to get it right.

I would suggest that anything regarding recourse or anything more are taken via private messaging routes. IMHO.

Main: AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AExaktbox10; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, AVSeKretan
www.audiophilemusings.co.uk
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 09:59
Post: #46
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
Phil;
Do bass reflex ports count as a separate bass source in this respect?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 11:50
Post: #47
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 09:59)Tin Wrote:  Phil;
Do bass reflex ports count as a separate bass source in this respect?

Yes. In the room mode model (both SPACE optimisation and SPACE optimisation+) they are defined by location and operating bandwidth.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 19:48 (This post was last modified: 2016-04-08 19:49 by linnrd.)
Post: #48
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 09:03)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  
(2016-04-08 00:49)linnrd Wrote:  So...what you're saying implies that there for a large room (e.g. such as one of mine where the room mode is at ca. 23Hz) it pretty much makes no difference at all AFA the two go. Am I correct in understanding this, Phil?
At 23 Hz, for a speaker with a single bass driver, correct. For the 140 the models in SPACE optimisation and SPACE optimisation+ will be rather different due to the SPACE optimisation+ model including the target acoustic output of each bass source. So the non-Exakt estimate will assume both bass drivers are contributing to the room mode, whereas the Exakt estimate the room mode will have significantly less contribution from the upper bass driver.

Also, large rooms tend to have more than one mode...

Phil.
Thanks a lot, Phil. This is very helpful in determining a starting point for out the effects of the full-range setup I have. I have managed to kill the higher frequency modes by some appropriately large furnishing to break them up. Your post, as before too, on the port contribution was helpful as well. For a custom speaker set up in Konfig, it is a bit of a tweaker's paradise (read nightmare). Any tips on how one can fiddle rear firing ports in konfig...or is it less of an issue than I make it out to be since directivity at LF is a bit 'mushy'? Cheers.

Half of what I post on here is not worth reading; but I post it in order that the other half gets posted.
Boring stuff->Linn Blacks->More boring stuff->K400->Even more boring stuff, all layered with Magick Faerie Dust.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-08, 20:02
Post: #49
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 08:50)Tin Wrote:  I know there is a difference between phase deviations and gain settings, but I don't know if Linn have been keeping track of those, or perhaps other undisclosed settings as well, before they started with Exakt. The only thing I know is that they did write down the gain settings for the drivers in 3K arrays as from the Mk2. For normal Aktiv cards there is no gain (sorry) in recording phase deviations, so I suppose they didn't.
Until Philbo started about phase deviations I thought that that was all they did.

The reason I asked Linn about the gain settings was that I only found out about the existence of gain settings a year or so after I made my komponents Aktiv and I started to think about 3K speakers. I'm terrible at hearing an issue and being able to figure out what is wrong, and I didn't want to struggle with that again. The helpdesk confirmed that the Mk2s have an edge when setting them up, but also said that for most 3Ks the default settings work like a charm, so that I needn't worry about buying Mk1s.
Which I didn't, and they were fine.

I think these posts like these brought me to mailing Linn about it;
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.p...396&page=2
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/archive/inde...25989.html

As about the axes, if you want to lure someone in giving information, showing your axe might not give the best results. It's up to you what you do, but I usually get better results with being nice. I have some experiences with using lawyers and although they were useful, I never got free information from the other parties afterwards. Linn is not required to write whitepapers, if they keep the marketing department on a short lease and just say 'decide for yourself what you think' they'd be fine.
That's not what you'd want.
Based on your own admission here of operating from a position of ogborance (i.e. A lack of knowledge...and nothing derogatory meant or implied), and what appeared to be so from your earlier reply, which is a rather blunt tool to tackle complex systems, the 'edge' I was referring to was, as you said, from my 'knowing how things work.'

I did attempt to bring the thread back on track after your attempt to derail it by mentioning axes and grindstones. I'm not sure why you continue to be so defensive and antagonistic, but it would behoove you to take this to PM, where your misconceptions can be cleared up without detracting from sunbeamgls' thread.

Half of what I post on here is not worth reading; but I post it in order that the other half gets posted.
Boring stuff->Linn Blacks->More boring stuff->K400->Even more boring stuff, all layered with Magick Faerie Dust.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2016-04-09, 09:03
Post: #50
RE: Exakt on the Web Site - Inaccurate Claims?
(2016-04-08 09:55)sunbeamgls Wrote:  I raised this thread in a collaborative spirit to help customers understand and for Linn to get it right.

I would suggest that anything regarding recourse or anything more are taken via private messaging routes. IMHO.

You're right. I have raised it with my dealer. But thanks Sunbeam for pointing this out, I'd have never known otherwise (well, "understood" may be a better word).

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)