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Roon support for Linn DS
2017-11-15, 13:23
Post: #391
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2017-11-15 12:30)catteste Wrote:  Roon does more than just provide an "exploration experience", good as that is.

For example it also provides high quality volume leveling, which I find invaluable, as well as other DSP functions such as up-sampling and convolution filters.

Not sure I like the sound of that but I maybe misunderstanding your comments.

As I am not using it I won't worry too much. Smile
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2017-11-15, 14:58
Post: #392
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2017-11-15 13:23)Martin H Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 12:30)catteste Wrote:  Roon does more than just provide an "exploration experience", good as that is.

For example it also provides high quality volume leveling, which I find invaluable, as well as other DSP functions such as up-sampling and convolution filters.

Not sure I like the sound of that but I maybe misunderstanding your comments.

As I am not using it I won't worry too much. Smile
It actually sounds horrid, I can't imagine that there is any advantage in having 2 sets of upsampling and filtering engines in a chain where one of them has no knowledge at all of the decoding hardware involved. It's like adding handlebars on a F1 car saying that being able to push them will make them go faster on the straights.

It reminds me of another thread, can't think of the name though.

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2017-11-15, 17:08
Post: #393
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2017-11-15 14:58)Tin Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 13:23)Martin H Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 12:30)catteste Wrote:  Roon does more than just provide an "exploration experience", good as that is.

For example it also provides high quality volume leveling, which I find invaluable, as well as other DSP functions such as up-sampling and convolution filters.

Not sure I like the sound of that but I maybe misunderstanding your comments.

As I am not using it I won't worry too much. Smile
It actually sounds horrid, I can't imagine that there is any advantage in having 2 sets of upsampling and filtering engines in a chain where one of them has no knowledge at all of the decoding hardware involved. It's like adding handlebars on a F1 car saying that being able to push them will make them go faster on the straights.

It reminds me of another thread, can't think of the name though.

You can switch on and switch off DSP functionality and digital volume control in ROON. Switched off, there is no further processing of the data. So, it's up to every user then. You can even decide not only per ROON instance what you like to switch on and off, you can decide in ROON for every output device, if and what DSP is suitable and wheter you like to go with ROON's digital volume control.
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2017-11-16, 11:30
Post: #394
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2017-11-15 13:23)Martin H Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 12:30)catteste Wrote:  Roon does more than just provide an "exploration experience", good as that is.
For example it also provides high quality volume leveling, which I find invaluable, as well as other DSP functions such as up-sampling and convolution filters.
Not sure I like the sound of that but I maybe misunderstanding your comments.
As I am not using it I won't worry too much. Smile

Volume leveling - adjusting the volume of each track so they play at the same perceived volume. Basically means you don't have to constantly adjust the volume manually all the time.
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2017-11-16, 11:55
Post: #395
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2017-11-16 11:30)catteste Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 13:23)Martin H Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 12:30)catteste Wrote:  Roon does more than just provide an "exploration experience", good as that is.
For example it also provides high quality volume leveling, which I find invaluable, as well as other DSP functions such as up-sampling and convolution filters.
Not sure I like the sound of that but I maybe misunderstanding your comments.
As I am not using it I won't worry too much. Smile

Volume leveling - adjusting the volume of each track so they play at the same perceived volume. Basically means you don't have to constantly adjust the volume manually all the time.

It was the up-sampling and convolution filters I was reacting to. Sad
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2017-11-16, 14:31
Post: #396
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2017-11-16 11:55)Martin H Wrote:  
(2017-11-16 11:30)catteste Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 13:23)Martin H Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 12:30)catteste Wrote:  Roon does more than just provide an "exploration experience", good as that is.
For example it also provides high quality volume leveling, which I find invaluable, as well as other DSP functions such as up-sampling and convolution filters.
Not sure I like the sound of that but I maybe misunderstanding your comments.
As I am not using it I won't worry too much. Smile

Volume leveling - adjusting the volume of each track so they play at the same perceived volume. Basically means you don't have to constantly adjust the volume manually all the time.

It was the up-sampling and convolution filters I was reacting to. Sad

Up-sampling (of a sort) is inherent in Linn's players I believe. You can always do it on the server side.

Here's an article on DSP convolution:
http://www.dspguide.com/ch6/2.htm

If I understand it right, it is necessary filtering algorithm in the processing of digital signals anyway.

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2017-11-16, 14:36
Post: #397
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2017-11-16 14:31)timster Wrote:  
(2017-11-16 11:55)Martin H Wrote:  
(2017-11-16 11:30)catteste Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 13:23)Martin H Wrote:  
(2017-11-15 12:30)catteste Wrote:  Roon does more than just provide an "exploration experience", good as that is.
For example it also provides high quality volume leveling, which I find invaluable, as well as other DSP functions such as up-sampling and convolution filters.
Not sure I like the sound of that but I maybe misunderstanding your comments.
As I am not using it I won't worry too much. Smile

Volume leveling - adjusting the volume of each track so they play at the same perceived volume. Basically means you don't have to constantly adjust the volume manually all the time.

It was the up-sampling and convolution filters I was reacting to. Sad

Up-sampling (of a sort) is inherent in Linn's players I believe. You can always do it on the server side.

Here's an article on DSP convolution:
http://www.dspguide.com/ch6/2.htm

If I understand it right, it is necessary filtering algorithm in the processing of digital signals anyway.

Yes - but not too sure I want the control point doing that before it sends it to the DS which is what I meant. Someone has posted that you can turn it off.
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2017-11-16, 15:36
Post: #398
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2017-11-16 14:36)Martin H Wrote:  Yes - but not too sure I want the control point doing that before it sends it to the DS which is what I meant. Someone has posted that you can turn it off.

Upsampling techniques, including the computation power needed to accomplish them are always advancing. The upsamplers of today are better than the upsamplers of years past. Same goes for DSD->PCM or PCM->DSD conversion. The math, the signal processing theory, etc, does not sit still.

I'm not stating that Roon's upsamplers are better than anyone else's, but I will argue that saying upsampling belongs in the hardware is ignoring the fact that general purpose CPUs that are powerful enough to compete with the specialized CPUs of just a few years ago. Upsampling/conversions in software enable using techniques that are not accessible to hardware without a firmware update, or at all because they lack the power.

For example, HQ Player is a piece of software out there that is often referred to as doing the most interesting upsampling/conversions out there. Beyond having a smart guy building it, it is possible because of how the software ignores CPU requirements (you need a pretty beefy setup to run it well). The software itself is a disaster when it comes to user experience, but it sounds truly incredible. He is also constantly improving it with new techniques and ideas.

(2017-11-15 14:58)Tin Wrote:  I can't imagine that there is any advantage in having 2 sets of upsampling and filtering engines in a chain where one of them has no knowledge at all of the decoding hardware involved.

If you measure a room properly through a set of filters/upsamplers/converters and then apply that room-correction-filter after the other stuff, your new filter had full access to the post-processed audio data when being created.

Additionally, many filters are digitally commutative -- you can rearrange them and get the same result. When two filters do different things, this property can often be used without detrimental effect.
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