Linn Forums

Current time: 2017-10-22, 21:49 Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Linn Forums / Linn Music Systems & Hi-fi Separates / Development v / DS Dropout

Post Reply 
DS Dropout
2017-03-05, 10:42
Post: #1
DS Dropout
I started a thread on "Linn DS" room and it was suggested I transferred it to here to ensure the development team saw it:

Ever since the update to Davaar 4.50.110 onwards that my DSs intermittently become 'invisible' to control points and Konfig? This is on an otherwise stable system, with no changes in years.

A reboot solves it for a while then it just suddenly reoccurs. It can also resolve after a period of time without me doing anything (measured in minutes to hours).

I've rolled back to 4.37.1671 and completely eliminated the problem. I'm guessing there must be a significant network comms change at this stage.

Any suggestions or similar experiences and solutions would be helpful.

Regards

Peter-Marc

KDS4/350A; ADSE/AkurateExaktbox 6/6100/109; MDSM2/109; Sekrit(x5)/109; Sneaky
MacMini: MinimServer/Kazoo
TS-419P+:MinimServer/Assett
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-03-05, 11:24
Post: #2
RE: DS Dropout
5 DS's... sounds like the old multicast issue? If you can, make sure IGMP snooping is disabled in your router. Not all routers have it, but worth a try.

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [DS214play +Jitterbug, MinimServer], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 652(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-03-05, 13:04 (This post was last modified: 2017-03-05 13:30 by Briain.)
Post: #3
RE: DS Dropout
(2017-03-05 10:42)fortune Wrote:  I started a thread on "Linn DS" room and it was suggested I transferred it to here to ensure the development team saw it:

Ever since the update to Davaar 4.50.110 onwards that my DSs intermittently become 'invisible' to control points and Konfig? This is on an otherwise stable system, with no changes in years.

A reboot solves it for a while then it just suddenly reoccurs. It can also resolve after a period of time without me doing anything (measured in minutes to hours).

I've rolled back to 4.37.1671 and completely eliminated the problem. I'm guessing there must be a significant network comms change at this stage.

Any suggestions or similar experiences and solutions would be helpful.

Hi

I have come across one instance where Davaar 37 worked okay, but installing Davaar 50 'caused' (or perhaps 'highlighted') some network related problems. Your guess about the network changes is entirely correct; for Davaar 50, Linn did a total ground-up redesign of the DS network stack. Whilst this seems to have been a total success, I recently loaned one of my friends a KDS Renew (with Davaar 50) and he couldn't get it to work (whereas his MDS on Davaar 37 worked just fine). To get him going, he installed D37 on the KDS and it all then worked, flawlessly.

Thinking it might be down to his BT Homehub and perhaps a DHCP handshaking disagreement (perhaps the Homehub was adding one of the many DHCP options and thus 'upsetting' the DS, or something odd like that) I contacted Linn and asked, but I was informed that there were no known issues (though they recently came across a similar issue with a Netgear WGR614 wireless router, but it looked rather charred on the outside and replacing it resolved the problem). In the interim, I suggested my friend swap his other network components to see if we could find a 'smoking gun' (faulting by process of elimination, as it were).

He had the BT Homehub plugged into a 1000 Mb/s Netgear unmanaged switch and everything else plugged into that switch (as opposed to the Homehub's switch ports) which is all just as it should have been (lots and lots of DS owning folks have identical network arrangements), but in his music room, he had a second switch (again, a high quality metal boxed Netgear unmanaged switch) and it was quite a old one (actually, it was only a 100 Mb/s Netgear DS104) with the two DS's plugged into that (and that switch was fed from the main 1000 Mb/s Netgear switch, located next to his router). Once he'd taken that 100 Mb/s switch out of circuit, he then re-installed Davaar 50 on the KDS and it all worked flawlessly (not that it was nothing to do with it being a 100 Mb/s switch; 100 Mb/s is loads of capacity for streaming and, in fact, the DS's only have 100 Mb/s Ethernet ports).

When he returned my KDS, I got him to bring that switch up to my house and I plugged it into my own network, then plugged my KDS into that. Whilst there was no problem discovering the KDS, when I tried adding a tune to the KDS play-list, Kinsky's wait timer just spun indefinitely (well, I gave up after about 30 seconds; close enough to indefinitely, as far as I was concerned).

So, although that 100 Mb/s switch appeared to work well, clearly it was not compatible with the new Linn network stack. I offered to send the switch to Linn, but as they pointed out, there was not much point in further investigating the issue as nobody else was having any such problems and there wasn't any value to be had by trying to find out why an ancient switch was causing a problem as likely it was just 'out of specification' (it could well be an issue with the old firmware in that switch, or it could be that the switch has drifted out of specification; old capacitors do deteriorate and thus their 'parameters' like ESR change; that's why changing the small capacitors in an elderly amplifier can improve its sound quality).

It could be that something similar is causing your system some grief, so perhaps you could let us know of what your network comprises. I know that some home routers were problematic (the original BT Homehub caused discovery issues and some Zyxel routers had badly implemented QoS that caused similar problems) but if you have an external switch, any flaws in the router should not have an impact on the DS operation (in terms of drop-outs of playing tracks) but as you can see from the above, it looks like there can be issues with an older switch and Davaar 50, so it would be worth borrowing a friend's switch and trying that to see if the problem goes away, then if it does, getting something like a Netgear GS108 (I think that's the number; it's the 8 port one in the blue metal box). In the UK, these can be purchased for about £35 from Currys or PC World, so if it is the switch, at least the 'fix' will not break the bank account!

Hope that helps in your quest to chase down the problem.
Bri

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-03-05, 14:18 (This post was last modified: 2017-03-05 14:23 by fortune.)
Post: #4
RE: DS Dropout
(2017-03-05 13:04)Briain Wrote:  
(2017-03-05 10:42)fortune Wrote:  I started a thread on "Linn DS" room and it was suggested I transferred it to here to ensure the development team saw it:

Ever since the update to Davaar 4.50.110 onwards that my DSs intermittently become 'invisible' to control points and Konfig? This is on an otherwise stable system, with no changes in years.

A reboot solves it for a while then it just suddenly reoccurs. It can also resolve after a period of time without me doing anything (measured in minutes to hours).

I've rolled back to 4.37.1671 and completely eliminated the problem. I'm guessing there must be a significant network comms change at this stage.

Any suggestions or similar experiences and solutions would be helpful.

Hi

I have come across one instance where Davaar 37 worked okay, but installing Davaar 50 'caused' (or perhaps 'highlighted') some network related problems. Your guess about the network changes is entirely correct; for Davaar 50, Linn did a total ground-up redesign of the DS network stack. Whilst this seems to have been a total success, I recently loaned one of my friends a KDS Renew (with Davaar 50) and he couldn't get it to work (whereas his MDS on Davaar 37 worked just fine). To get him going, he installed D37 on the KDS and it all then worked, flawlessly.

Thinking it might be down to his BT Homehub and perhaps a DHCP handshaking disagreement (perhaps the Homehub was adding one of the many DHCP options and thus 'upsetting' the DS, or something odd like that) I contacted Linn and asked, but I was informed that there were no known issues (though they recently came across a similar issue with a Netgear WGR614 wireless router, but it looked rather charred on the outside and replacing it resolved the problem). In the interim, I suggested my friend swap his other network components to see if we could find a 'smoking gun' (faulting by process of elimination, as it were).

He had the BT Homehub plugged into a 1000 Mb/s Netgear unmanaged switch and everything else plugged into that switch (as opposed to the Homehub's switch ports) which is all just as it should have been (lots and lots of DS owning folks have identical network arrangements), but in his music room, he had a second switch (again, a high quality metal boxed Netgear unmanaged switch) and it was quite a old one (actually, it was only a 100 Mb/s Netgear DS104) with the two DS's plugged into that (and that switch was fed from the main 1000 Mb/s Netgear switch, located next to his router). Once he'd taken that 100 Mb/s switch out of circuit, he then re-installed Davaar 50 on the KDS and it all worked flawlessly (not that it was nothing to do with it being a 100 Mb/s switch; 100 Mb/s is loads of capacity for streaming and, in fact, the DS's only have 100 Mb/s Ethernet ports).

When he returned my KDS, I got him to bring that switch up to my house and I plugged it into my own network, then plugged my KDS into that. Whilst there was no problem discovering the KDS, when I tried adding a tune to the KDS play-list, Kinsky's wait timer just spun indefinitely (well, I gave up after about 30 seconds; close enough to indefinitely, as far as I was concerned).

So, although that 100 Mb/s switch appeared to work well, clearly it was not compatible with the new Linn network stack. I offered to send the switch to Linn, but as they pointed out, there was not much point in further investigating the issue as nobody else was having any such problems and there wasn't any value to be had by trying to find out why an ancient switch was causing a problem as likely it was just 'out of specification' (it could well be an issue with the old firmware in that switch, or it could be that the switch has drifted out of specification; old capacitors do deteriorate and thus their 'parameters' like ESR change; that's why changing the small capacitors in an elderly amplifier can improve its sound quality).

It could be that something similar is causing your system some grief, so perhaps you could let us know of what your network comprises. I know that some home routers were problematic (the original BT Homehub caused discovery issues and some Zyxel routers had badly implemented QoS that caused similar problems) but if you have an external switch, any flaws in the router should not have an impact on the DS operation (in terms of drop-outs of playing tracks) but as you can see from the above, it looks like there can be issues with an older switch and Davaar 50, so it would be worth borrowing a friend's switch and trying that to see if the problem goes away, then if it does, getting something like a Netgear GS108 (I think that's the number; it's the 8 port one in the blue metal box). In the UK, these can be purchased for about £35 from Currys or PC World, so if it is the switch, at least the 'fix' will not break the bank account!

Hope that helps in your quest to chase down the problem.
Bri

Thanks

I do have one 'cascaded switch' off one brach of a much larger managed switch (Old switch is a Netgear FS108 and managed is a Cisco SG200-26: because I am using multicasting).

It is only in the pathway to one of my DSs, but to fair the one I often use as a 'master' for Songcasting.

I'll try swapping it out

Thanks

Regards

Peter-Marc

KDS4/350A; ADSE/AkurateExaktbox 6/6100/109; MDSM2/109; Sekrit(x5)/109; Sneaky
MacMini: MinimServer/Kazoo
TS-419P+:MinimServer/Assett
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-03-05, 14:31
Post: #5
RE: DS Dropout
Being in IT I have encountered way too often that devices or applications wouldn't want to work together despite both being able to work correctly in other environments.
Usually this is when I start bodging things into submission.

If you are able to make a map of your network and are able to upgrade and/or move devices to other switch ports that could help you to figure out what the culprit is.

Can you change the multicasting options per port on the Cisco? That might help.

Tin can telephone system.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-03-05, 15:38 (This post was last modified: 2017-03-05 15:40 by Briain.)
Post: #6
RE: DS Dropout
(2017-03-05 14:31)Tin Wrote:  Being in IT I have encountered way too often that devices or applications wouldn't want to work together despite both being able to work correctly in other environments.
Usually this is when I start bodging things into submission.

If you are able to make a map of your network and are able to upgrade and/or move devices to other switch ports that could help you to figure out what the culprit is.

Can you change the multicasting options per port on the Cisco? That might help.

If you are using a managed switch, it pays to try disabling all the fancy features (other than the ones that you actually require) in case any are responsible for unintended consequences. If that works, you can then enable the sensible ones - one at a time - and see if it remains working (or if not, at least find out which one is giving you the grief).

I recently had a 'fun' issue with my own managed switch. Everything worked just fine, then when I tried to Songcast between two DS units, the stream periodically dropped out. It could work for a while (sometimes 10s of minutes) then it started to drop (for under a second) at periods comprising multiples of 30 seconds (so sometimes every 30s, then sometimes every 60s or 90s).

When setting up the switch, I had disabled all the 'toys' (I only wanted a managed switch as I have my network segmented into a bunch of tagged VLANs) so I contacted D-Link support (and as requested, sent them a Wireshark capture). They assigned the issue to something unrelated (a PC sitting on my network) but they also sent me a beta firmware. That didn't fix things, but it did expose a new settings option for a 'D-Link Discovery Protocol' and - of course - it was enabled by default (and polled the network for any D-Link friends every 30 seconds) so I disabled that and it all then worked.

I reported the problem with the D-Link Discovery Protocol (from memory, it was only a single - and harmless looking - packet, spat onto the network every 30s, so nothing obvious that should have caused any major streaming grief) but the key thing is that at least it can now be disabled (in what is now the release version of their firmware).

Bri

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-03-06, 23:17
Post: #7
RE: DS Dropout
(2017-03-05 11:24)timster Wrote:  5 DS's... sounds like the old multicast issue? If you can, make sure IGMP snooping is disabled in your router. Not all routers have it, but worth a try.

I've been multicasting for years. IGMP snooping has always been on - In fact I though I had to enable it to get the multicasting working - have I remembered wrong?

Regards

Peter-Marc

KDS4/350A; ADSE/AkurateExaktbox 6/6100/109; MDSM2/109; Sekrit(x5)/109; Sneaky
MacMini: MinimServer/Kazoo
TS-419P+:MinimServer/Assett
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-03-07, 08:58
Post: #8
RE: DS Dropout
(2017-03-06 23:17)fortune Wrote:  
(2017-03-05 11:24)timster Wrote:  5 DS's... sounds like the old multicast issue? If you can, make sure IGMP snooping is disabled in your router. Not all routers have it, but worth a try.

I've been multicasting for years. IGMP snooping has always been on - In fact I though I had to enable it to get the multicasting working - have I remembered wrong?

Not sure. I'm pretty sure for more than 5 DS's you need to use multicast when songcasting but whether you need snooping on is another matter. But I know the "snooping" has been causing issues. No idea why or whether you need it for your setup though.

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [DS214play +Jitterbug, MinimServer], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 652(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-03-08, 18:03
Post: #9
RE: DS Dropout
(2017-03-07 08:58)timster Wrote:  
(2017-03-06 23:17)fortune Wrote:  
(2017-03-05 11:24)timster Wrote:  5 DS's... sounds like the old multicast issue? If you can, make sure IGMP snooping is disabled in your router. Not all routers have it, but worth a try.

I've been multicasting for years. IGMP snooping has always been on - In fact I though I had to enable it to get the multicasting working - have I remembered wrong?

Not sure. I'm pretty sure for more than 5 DS's you need to use multicast when songcasting but whether you need snooping on is another matter. But I know the "snooping" has been causing issues. No idea why or whether you need it for your setup though.

Turned it off - everything stopped talking - you need it!!

Regards

Peter-Marc

KDS4/350A; ADSE/AkurateExaktbox 6/6100/109; MDSM2/109; Sekrit(x5)/109; Sneaky
MacMini: MinimServer/Kazoo
TS-419P+:MinimServer/Assett
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-09-11, 13:47
Post: #10
RE: DS Dropout
(2017-03-07 08:58)timster Wrote:  ...but whether you need snooping on is another matter. But I know the "snooping" has been causing issues. No idea why or whether you need it for your setup though.

If using multicast streaming on a network, it's pretty much essential to use managed switches running IGMP snooping, otherwise you risk saturating devices - particularly wireless access points - with unwanted traffic.

See http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Mu..._Filtering

Setting this up correctly is not always trivial and can require some care. For example, this is our standard IGMP snooping setup for the Cisco sg300-10 switch.
http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/images/e/ef/..._setup.pdf

Cheers,
Chris.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)