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New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
2017-03-28, 15:45 (This post was last modified: 2017-03-28 15:47 by timster.)
Post: #11
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
"Stuffed cottage" Smile
Love it!

Surely for Linn htough we need to add:
Stone castle

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
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2017-03-28, 15:54 (This post was last modified: 2017-03-28 15:57 by Briain.)
Post: #12
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-27 18:51)phino Wrote:  ...whilst on the "picky-picky" theme I bet there are a few Linux types out there would take issue with the 'any computer' bit Wink

That'll be me then! Wink

Actually, I'm not that bothered as it's not something that needs often adjusted (and in any case, I have just ordered one of these chaps, which I plan to remote control using RealVNC on my Linux laptop) but it won't always be available (it will often be booted into Linux for another project) so it would actually be very useful if there was a way to just control the system from Linux laptop (in other words, if Kinsky or Kazoo could be run on Debian units) as my iPad 3 is now starting to get a bit flaky (I suspect a RAM issue). The Linux CP wouldn't have to be a fully featured control point; even something in the basic style of the original Linn GUI would be better than absolutely nothing.

Alas, I do understand that there probably aren't enough of us to justify the spend on a Linux CP, so hopefully the replacement version of Kinsky Jukebox will arrive before my iPad totally expires (or I'll maybe just have to fix the SMPS in my old Karik CD player for when that new PC is otherwise occupied).

Bri

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-03-28, 15:56
Post: #13
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
Hmm, concerning the argument, a mic based approach would measure speaker + room and by this be inferior.

Not sure I understand it. Isn't the combination of speakers in my room what matters anyway? If I were to improve the sound of the speakers only I'd agree, but SO is about improving the sound of the speaker in my room, isn't it?

Guess I don't understand the logic in this argument.

BY
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2017-03-28, 16:02
Post: #14
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-28 15:56)Baba Yaga Wrote:  Hmm, concerning the argument, a mic based approach would measure speaker + room and by this be inferior.

Not sure I understand it. Isn't the combination of speakers in my room what matters anyway? If I were to improve the sound of the speakers only I'd agree, but SO is about improving the sound of the speaker in my room, isn't it?

Guess I don't understand the logic in this argument.

BY

I think the paragraph titled "Why we dropped the mic" answers it doesn't it?

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

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2017-03-28, 16:05
Post: #15
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-28 16:02)timster Wrote:  
(2017-03-28 15:56)Baba Yaga Wrote:  Hmm, concerning the argument, a mic based approach would measure speaker + room and by this be inferior.

Not sure I understand it. Isn't the combination of speakers in my room what matters anyway? If I were to improve the sound of the speakers only I'd agree, but SO is about improving the sound of the speaker in my room, isn't it?

Guess I don't understand the logic in this argument.

BY

I think the paragraph titled "Why we dropped the mic" answers it doesn't it?
Nope,
Placement and Quality are easy to agree with but I'm struggling with the first argument.
BY
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2017-03-28, 16:23
Post: #16
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-28 16:05)Baba Yaga Wrote:  
(2017-03-28 16:02)timster Wrote:  
(2017-03-28 15:56)Baba Yaga Wrote:  Hmm, concerning the argument, a mic based approach would measure speaker + room and by this be inferior.

Not sure I understand it. Isn't the combination of speakers in my room what matters anyway? If I were to improve the sound of the speakers only I'd agree, but SO is about improving the sound of the speaker in my room, isn't it?

Guess I don't understand the logic in this argument.

BY

I think the paragraph titled "Why we dropped the mic" answers it doesn't it?
Nope,
Placement and Quality are easy to agree with but I'm struggling with the first argument.
BY

Ah, OK I see.
Maybe it depends on what you use the mic for - if you don't use SO and have some other method to optimise the speakers, then perhaps the point is that the mic has no idea where what it's detecting is coming from so could end up giving incorrect results to whatever that thing is?
Or if you plug the mic's results into SO somehow perhaps you're then doubling the room effects rather than removing them?
Or something?

I have no idea, just guessing really.

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

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2017-03-28, 16:34
Post: #17
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
I've experimented with a microphone and it does show the main modes very well, but I'm not sure how well it would pick up the funky new stereo modes. What I have often wondered is whether a combination of entering the dimensions and a microphone based solution might have a future (perhaps as a partial solution)? In other words, you could enter all the dimensions as best you could, then a microphone based solution could optimise the main dip frequencies to best land them where they need be (maybe leaving the depths to be set by ear). That way, perhaps the reflections (and other complexities of microphone based measurements) wouldn't so much matter as the system knows roughly what to expect by the basic information input via Konfig.

Even if that was possible, I guess the danger of doing something like that - as in a partial microphone assisted type of solution - would be that Linn are then incorrectly perceived (e.g. by non-Linn forum users, or even by the gutter Hi-Fi press) as not having the required skills to produce a fully microphone based solution, even though it was done so for very sound technical (and musical) reasons.

Of course, that sort of idea sounds all very plausible when you type it, but perhaps the reality of building something like that is a very different story? It's like me e-mailing my financial adviser and telling him I'd like to be a millionaire by Friday lunchtime; all very easy to type that, but [sadly] it isn't quite so plausible (though maybe I should give it a try)! Tongue

I did actually find a use for rapid sweeps, but that was achieved by using my ears and brain (well, what's left of them) and not by measuring anything with a microphone. In my lounge, the room length is ambiguous due to the end walls being 50% glass (and the glass to glass dimension is 400 mm greater than the wall to wall dimension) so I chose a median length then did very rapid sweeps and widened the L2 dip width (still by less than the 10% limit) and lowered its depth (by less than 2 dB, so not by much) and the 'irregularity' all but disappeared (this was all done by ear; not by measurements) and that enabled me to then scale that width change down to L1 (which is just under 20 Hz). I'm not sure if that level of precision is possible by just using tune demo tricks, but if it is, I'm sure it would take an absolute age to do it in that way.

Oh yes, and I think that the system perhaps did sound a wee bit better after the above changes were made.

Bri Smile

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-03-28, 16:35
Post: #18
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-28 16:23)timster Wrote:  
(2017-03-28 16:05)Baba Yaga Wrote:  
(2017-03-28 16:02)timster Wrote:  
(2017-03-28 15:56)Baba Yaga Wrote:  Hmm, concerning the argument, a mic based approach would measure speaker + room and by this be inferior.

Not sure I understand it. Isn't the combination of speakers in my room what matters anyway? If I were to improve the sound of the speakers only I'd agree, but SO is about improving the sound of the speaker in my room, isn't it?

Guess I don't understand the logic in this argument.

BY

I think the paragraph titled "Why we dropped the mic" answers it doesn't it?
Nope,
Placement and Quality are easy to agree with but I'm struggling with the first argument.
BY

Ah, OK I see.
Maybe it depends on what you use the mic for - if you don't use SO and have some other method to optimise the speakers, then perhaps the point is that the mic has no idea where what it's detecting is coming from so could end up giving incorrect results to whatever that thing is?
Or if you plug the mic's results into SO somehow perhaps you're then doubling the room effects rather than removing them?
Or something?

I have no idea, just guessing really.

Well, all true - so let's assume the mic measurements gave misleading results (avoiding the term wrong here).
But if I repeat the process the newly measured parameters would lead to new input for SO (or whatever) and so on. After a number of iterations the result should become better and better. Knowing what change is related to the room and what to the speakers is not required for this.
At least, that is about what is crossing my mind ... Big Grin

BY
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2017-03-28, 16:36 (This post was last modified: 2017-03-28 16:39 by Briain.)
Post: #19
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-28 16:02)timster Wrote:  I think the paragraph titled "Why we dropped the mic" answers it doesn't it?

I think Linn just really enjoy dropping stuff; tuners, CD players, pre-amplifiers, subs, microphones and prices (err, perhaps not quite so much with the last one)! Tongue

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-03-29, 01:01
Post: #20
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
So, I'm going to pick up that mic and use REW anyway, in what I'm anticipating will be both a learning experience and corrective one. My new listening room in our new house isn't a good environment, slap echo, flutter echo, etc. When SO+ is turned off the music is nasty, turned on and with its 3 room modes (all below 100hz) the high end is quite tiring and I actually feel a bit foolish having invested this much into a system that I feel compelled to limit my music playlist with. So I blame it on the room Big Grin. The room needs some acoustical treatment and I am working on getting it sorted.

My plan is to use SO+ along with REW information to better understand the environment and then by listening and tweaking, build myself a house curve to what I hope to be musical bliss. In other words I don't feel, and it hasn't been shown/heard that SO+ will get me there on its own, at least in this room. Granted I could struggle with it and tune dem it into a shape, which I've also worked at doing, but it still doesn't help me understand how to fix the room acoustics, I think REW will help with this.

And why not? My sense is that both a mic based analyzer and SO+ both have their own short comings and rather than be limited to one camp or the other I'll take the best of each. The ability of REW to tell me what is happening and the SO+ ability to let me tinker with it. Worst thing that can happen if I fail is spending a few bucks on a calibrated mic and some time.

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