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New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
2017-03-29, 01:05
Post: #21
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-29 01:01)ropedrag Wrote:  So, I'm going to pick up that mic and use REW anyway, in what I'm anticipating will be both a learning experience and corrective one. My new listening room in our new house isn't a good environment, slap echo, flutter echo, etc. When SO+ is turned off the music is nasty, turned on and with its 3 room modes (all below 100hz) the high end is quite tiring and I actually feel a bit foolish having invested this much into a system that I feel compelled to limit my music playlist with. So I blame it on the room Big Grin. The room needs some acoustical treatment and I am working on getting it sorted.

My plan is to use SO+ along with REW information to better understand the environment and then by listening and tweaking, build myself a house curve to what I hope to be musical bliss. In other words I don't feel, and it hasn't been shown/heard that SO+ will get me there on its own, at least in this room. Granted I could struggle with it and tune dem it into a shape, which I've also worked at doing, but it still doesn't help me understand how to fix the room acoustics, I think REW will help with this.

And why not? My sense is that both a mic based analyzer and SO+ both have their own short comings and rather than be limited to one camp or the other I'll take the best of each. The ability of REW to tell me what is happening and the SO+ ability to let me tinker with it. Worst thing that can happen if I fail is spending a few bucks on a calibrated mic and some time.

Just to muddy the waters a bit.

At some point I will drive down to Seattle and do SPACE Optimization on your system.

It will be an REW free-zone. Tongue

Exakt Surround 5.0:
AEDSM, Exakt Akubariks, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-03-29, 03:54
Post: #22
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-29 01:05)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-03-29 01:01)ropedrag Wrote:  

Just to muddy the waters a bit.

At some point I will drive down to Seattle and do SPACE Optimization on your system.

It will be an REW free-zone. Tongue

That would be awesome Paul

Also, I'm working on going exakt surround and may reach out with a couple questions.

Akurate ADSM/1. Akurate Exaktbox 10, 2X 4200, 2200, Akurate 242's. 2nd Akurate Exaktbox 10, 5100, Akurate 225. 5100, 104C's. ExaktBox Sub, Sunfire HRS12. Oppo 203.
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2017-03-29, 06:52
Post: #23
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
Ropedrag: save yourself the mic. Just buy white chocolate and lure Paul into coming to your house.
If there are cheap flights saving him on the journey, buy him the tickets.
It's worth it.

Tin can telephone system.
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2017-03-29, 07:13
Post: #24
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-29 03:54)ropedrag Wrote:  
(2017-03-29 01:05)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-03-29 01:01)ropedrag Wrote:  

Just to muddy the waters a bit.

At some point I will drive down to Seattle and do SPACE Optimization on your system.

It will be an REW free-zone. Tongue

That would be awesome Paul

Also, I'm working on going exakt surround and may reach out with a couple questions.


It would be great to finally meet.

I will try to help with any questions you have on Exakt Surround.

I just started my serious investigation and tweaking for SPACE optimization for Exakt Surround today.

Interesting learning so far.



(2017-03-29 06:52)Tin Wrote:  Ropedrag: save yourself the mic. Just buy white chocolate and lure Paul into coming to your house.
If there are cheap flights saving him on the journey, buy him the tickets.
It's worth it.

Thanks Tin,

It is only a 2.5 hour drive down to Seattle, and an opportunity to stop at Trader Joes and Costco.

Exakt Surround 5.0:
AEDSM, Exakt Akubariks, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-03-29, 10:10
Post: #25
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-29 07:13)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-03-29 03:54)ropedrag Wrote:  
(2017-03-29 01:05)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-03-29 01:01)ropedrag Wrote:  

Just to muddy the waters a bit.

At some point I will drive down to Seattle and do SPACE Optimization on your system.

It will be an REW free-zone. Tongue

That would be awesome Paul

Also, I'm working on going exakt surround and may reach out with a couple questions.


It would be great to finally meet.

I will try to help with any questions you have on Exakt Surround.

I just started my serious investigation and tweaking for SPACE optimization for Exakt Surround today.

Interesting learning so far.



(2017-03-29 06:52)Tin Wrote:  Ropedrag: save yourself the mic. Just buy white chocolate and lure Paul into coming to your house.
If there are cheap flights saving him on the journey, buy him the tickets.
It's worth it.

Thanks Tin,

It is only a 2.5 hour drive down to Seattle, and an opportunity to stop at Trader Joes and Costco.
So, you can see them from a plane as well. No need to go inside. Tongue

Tin can telephone system.
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2017-03-29, 13:00
Post: #26
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-28 15:56)Baba Yaga Wrote:  Hmm, concerning the argument, a mic based approach would measure speaker + room and by this be inferior.

Not sure I understand it. Isn't the combination of speakers in my room what matters anyway? If I were to improve the sound of the speakers only I'd agree, but SO is about improving the sound of the speaker in my room, isn't it?

Guess I don't understand the logic in this argument.

BY

Our point is that you bought the speakers because you liked the way they sound.

If we measure (using a microphone) the result of your room and speaker together we will end up 'correcting' the whole system, normally to a theoretically ideal flat response, this may not be ideal.

Space optimisation models the system, both with and without the room, and then optimises based on the difference. This effectively removes the sonic design of the speaker from the optimisation and only fixes issues with the room.

Phil.
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2017-03-29, 15:07
Post: #27
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
Quote:Space optimisation models the system, both with and without the room, and then optimises based on the difference. This effectively removes the sonic design of the speaker from the optimisation and only fixes issues with the room.

Phil.

Does that mean that since my LINN speakers have not been measured I'd be better off using the Mic approach?
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2017-03-29, 16:45
Post: #28
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-29 15:07)MeaCulpa Wrote:  Does that mean that since my LINN speakers have not been measured I'd be better off using the Mic approach?

On the Linn logic, probably not. You'd still be measuring room + speakers, rather than room alone. You would select 'other loudspeaker' in SPACE optimisation setup.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
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2017-03-29, 18:33
Post: #29
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
I don't understand enough about the underlying science to trade ideas but at a dummy level i understand Phil's point above. However, I would assume (TBH that is what I assumed) that it was possible to understand what each model of speaker should 'look like' when measured by a calibrated Mic in a 'perfect room' - i.e. a room that doesn't compromise the listening. So the modelling would look to correct the differences discovered in your own room by the Mic. The adjustments made would be to achieve 'that' rather than adjust to make it 'flat'.

All of this assumes some sort of measured/calibrated Mic that is recorded centrally in the same way that speaker measurements are plus some sort of tone sweep I guess. I can, even at a dummy level think of all sorts of reasons why this might be a lot harder than it sounds but the point would be - does this get you to a better result/more quickly than popping in the measurements. If not then then there is no point.

The point here is less about achieving perfection (which is unlikely) and more about simplifying and accelerating the process and reduce the manual tweaking necessary at the end of the process. Again if it didn't do this, then why bother. At the same time I can also see why users get nervous about being able to optimise what they have bought without the help of the dealer or Samaritans such as PaulSurround and Sunbeamgls and instead look elsewhere.
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2017-03-29, 18:45
Post: #30
RE: New Space Optimisation Blog - Why We Dropped The Mic.
(2017-03-29 16:45)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-03-29 15:07)MeaCulpa Wrote:  Does that mean that since my LINN speakers have not been measured I'd be better off using the Mic approach?

On the Linn logic, probably not. You'd still be measuring room + speakers, rather than room alone. You would select 'other loudspeaker' in SPACE optimisation setup.

David

If I understand correctly, his Linn speakers have been measured in a generic way. Linn have measured a number of Katans, Ninkas, Espeks, Keilidhs, 140's and so on, to get an average reading.

These speakers would not be calibrated for Mea Culpa's specific speakers, but would be fairly accurate modelling for SPACE optimization.

For example, when you go Exakt, do you get your specific 3K arrays calibrated by Linn, and this information goes into Linn's data base to compensate for your specific speakers in the SPACE optimization algorithm.

At least that is my understanding.

Exakt Surround 5.0:
AEDSM, Exakt Akubariks, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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