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Fine Tuning SPACE Optimization, To Get The Best Out of Davaar 173 Through To 185
2017-09-06, 05:40
Post: #121
RE: Fine Tuning SPACE Optimization, To Get The Best Out of Davaar 173 Through To 182
(2017-09-05 23:05)Evo Wrote:  I have been following this thread for some time now. Most informative and a revelation in some aspects regarding SO - thanks Paulssurround.

Owning a Trinnov Amethyst, I never really bothered engaging SO on my KDS, it just never occurred to me how SO could improve listening further....How wrong I was!

When upgrading to the Katalyst earlier this year, in a moment of madness/inspiration, I thought I would try following the basic Linn SO guide, and subsequently this thread, for additional optimisation - beyond the rabbit hole.....I could not believe the further listening improvements I was hearing.

Prior to using SO. Whenever I would switch the DSP out and bypass the Trinnov room correction, the music would sound flat, one dimensional. In fact a dealer friend who was here one occasion, couldn't believe he was still listening to the KDS - his words, "where's all the soul gone?". Now after using/tweaking SO, the difference when Trinnov is bypassed, is much less noticeable. The music retains all its soul.

SO is the basics of getting your room to play fair, the Trinnov allows me to further tweak the results based on my mood and music.....Thanks Linn and Paulssurround

Thanks Evo,

Glad it was helpful, as we all explore this journey of Space optimization.

Linn has provided us with a great tool to get the best out of our Linn systems. Big Grin

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2017-09-06, 06:31
Post: #122
RE: Fine Tuning SPACE Optimization, To Get The Best Out of Davaar 173 Through To 182
(2017-09-05 19:11)phino Wrote:  
(2017-09-05 12:36)timster Wrote:  Paul I have an interesting observation for you.

I was looking into the shoutiness and vocal depth issue (Ophelia by Natalie Merchant is a good example that I am now using). You said in the original post:

Quote:Okay, you are listening to your music and playing your favorite reference music tracks, and notice that female vocals are shouty or have sibilance. You notice that the soundstage is detailed but flat. You notice that the piano doesn’t sound quite right.
You notice that a male or female singer’s voice doesn’t have enough body and depth to the lower range of their voice.

I tried your suggestion re. the 60 and 70Hz ranges. Some improvement. But I have found the most effective is the 50Hz range. Just as an experiment, I turned mine off (at 54.86, LW- mode) and.... bam! Best ever. Deep, and what shoutiness there was is gone.

Explanation? None. Any ideas why this should be?

Just Listen Smile

Well, at a guess...

An axial 'L' mode simply means a standing wave that is set up between the front and back wall - half the wavelength being the same as the distance between the walls. So the sound is bouncing between the two walls and that frequency builds up as a result as the peaks and troughs of the waveform add together as the sound wave bounces between them.
Similarly, a 'W' mode is a sound wave that bounces between your left and right walls. 'H' between floor and ceiling.
An tangential mode, 'LW' means that the sound wave bounces off all four walls, front, left, rear, right - going right around the room. Therefore, if there's any obstruction such as a chimney breast, bay window, or if one of the walls doesn't actually exist (ie in an open-plan setup), the sound won't bounce off all four walls to complete a circuit, so the standing wave won't build up.
In the case of fireplaces or bay windows or if there are four walls but they're not parallel, that's not to say that the sound won't find a different path to bounce around - in which case, it's the length of that path that determines the frequency of the room mode - and could well be quite a bit longer or shorter than calculated by SO - and hence a different frequency - probably beyond the +-2Hz that SO allows you to adjust a calculated mode filter by. The fact that it's bouncing off at an angle also reduces the strength, which is probably one of the reasons why the SO guide says that those modes will be over-compensated.

So, if you don't have the standard four walls as described in the SO model, you can probably safely dump the LW mode. If you have a chimney breast or bay window etc, it would be worth trying different frequencies to see if you can pin it down that way.

But at the end of the day, Paul's method of 'just listening' is probably just as valid, even if it might not be dealing with room modes as such, rather just using SO as a killer graphic equaliser.

I do have an inglenook with wood mantel, and an open 'corridor' through to the kitchen, both on SO's front wall, so that could explain it.
I may try re-instating the mode and playing with it's gain and frequency as you suggest. Or it could be an invalid filter. We shall see Smile

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2017-09-12, 15:06
Post: #123
RE: Fine Tuning SPACE Optimization, To Get The Best Out of Davaar 173 Through To 182
(2017-09-02 21:46)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-09-02 18:36)Linncredible Wrote:  
(2017-06-02 02:18)Paulssurround Wrote:  Whenever I see a calculated room mode 1 in the 35 Hz - 50 Hz range, it is a safe bet that there will be a real room mode at approximately half the calculated room mode that does not show up as a calculated room mode. However, it may not be exactly half the frequency, but off by many Hz above or below the projected value.

For example, if your calculated room mode 1 is in the 32Hz to 49 Hz range, there is almost certainly a real room mode in the mid to low 20 Hz range or may even be below 20 Hz. Thank you Linnrd, for this helpful discovery.

I have learned that different speakers seem to respond to specific frequencies. For example, my Akubariks benefit greatly from a custom room mode 1 at 21.5 Hz. I usually start with a gain of -10.5 for this custom room mode and a bandwidth of 0.014427.

...

What do you do if Konfig has already calculated a room mode 1 in the 20 Hz range?

I have seen enough Linn systems now, that I can say that sometimes SPACE optimization does calculate this lower frequency room mode in the 20 Hz range. If that is the case, then I adjust the frequency of this calculated room mode 1 up or down in frequency as well, to see if you can capture the specific frequency, and zoom in on the specific frequency that is excited. Then create a narrower notch filter at that frequency.

Thank you Paulssurround for sharing your experience, knowledge and conclusions! One question with connection to what you write above: if I understand you correctly, a custom room mode 1 at approx. 21.5 Hz has worked well for all Akubariks that you have listened to and worked with, not just your own Akubariks?

I have a calculated room mode 1 at 26.98 Hz. Any thoughts on where to start tweaking this one - is the text above that I have marked in italic, applicable or do you think I should do something else to take into account the custom room mode 1 at 21.5 Hz?

Hi Linncredible,

I would certainly try a custom room mode at around 21.5 and see how it sounds.

I think my custom room mode is actually around 21.13 at the moment

Thank you Paul for your excellent suggestions concerning my system! I have now added 3 custom filters:

1: 21.2 Hz, -10.5 db, 0.014427 octaves
2: 63.5 Hz, -7.10 db, 0.014563 octaves
3: 74.30 Hz, -7.10 db, 0.021457 octaves.

There might be room for some further small improvements, tweaking the gain on custom filter 3 (maybe 2 also) some more. However, the result right now is a great improvement when compared to before. Thank you for sharing so generously Paulssurround! Smile

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2017-09-12, 15:23
Post: #124
RE: Fine Tuning SPACE Optimization, To Get The Best Out of Davaar 173 Through To 182
(2017-09-12 15:06)Linncredible Wrote:  
(2017-09-02 21:46)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-09-02 18:36)Linncredible Wrote:  
(2017-06-02 02:18)Paulssurround Wrote:  Whenever I see a calculated room mode 1 in the 35 Hz - 50 Hz range, it is a safe bet that there will be a real room mode at approximately half the calculated room mode that does not show up as a calculated room mode. However, it may not be exactly half the frequency, but off by many Hz above or below the projected value.

For example, if your calculated room mode 1 is in the 32Hz to 49 Hz range, there is almost certainly a real room mode in the mid to low 20 Hz range or may even be below 20 Hz. Thank you Linnrd, for this helpful discovery.

I have learned that different speakers seem to respond to specific frequencies. For example, my Akubariks benefit greatly from a custom room mode 1 at 21.5 Hz. I usually start with a gain of -10.5 for this custom room mode and a bandwidth of 0.014427.

...

What do you do if Konfig has already calculated a room mode 1 in the 20 Hz range?

I have seen enough Linn systems now, that I can say that sometimes SPACE optimization does calculate this lower frequency room mode in the 20 Hz range. If that is the case, then I adjust the frequency of this calculated room mode 1 up or down in frequency as well, to see if you can capture the specific frequency, and zoom in on the specific frequency that is excited. Then create a narrower notch filter at that frequency.

Thank you Paulssurround for sharing your experience, knowledge and conclusions! One question with connection to what you write above: if I understand you correctly, a custom room mode 1 at approx. 21.5 Hz has worked well for all Akubariks that you have listened to and worked with, not just your own Akubariks?

I have a calculated room mode 1 at 26.98 Hz. Any thoughts on where to start tweaking this one - is the text above that I have marked in italic, applicable or do you think I should do something else to take into account the custom room mode 1 at 21.5 Hz?

Hi Linncredible,

I would certainly try a custom room mode at around 21.5 and see how it sounds.

I think my custom room mode is actually around 21.13 at the moment

Thank you Paul for your excellent suggestions concerning my system! I have now added 3 custom filters:

1: 21.2 Hz, -10.5 db, 0.014427 octaves
2: 63.5 Hz, -7.10 db, 0.014563 octaves
3: 74.30 Hz, -7.10 db, 0.021457 octaves.

There might be room for some further small improvements, tweaking the gain on custom filter 3 (maybe 2 also) some more. However, the result right now is a great improvement when compared to before. Thank you for sharing so generously Paulssurround! Smile

You are more than welcome.

That is great news. I am glad it was helpful.

The more SPACE optimizations I do on Linn DS systems, the more I am amazed at what it can do to have a profound transformation in sound quality.

I know of no other Hifi manufacturer that provides a means for it customers to get so much from their stereo systems with a bit of tweaking using SPACE.

I have now worked on everything from Tukans to Komris, and the improvement in sound quality when using SPACE optimization has been mind blowing. Big Grin

Exakt Surround 5.0:
AEDSM, Exakt Akubariks, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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