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Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
2017-08-12, 16:09
Post: #21
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
Could be, but that page only talks about HDMI sources, so wouldn't definitively rule out other sources. Will have a look at the Konfig manual later, see if that's any clearer.

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2017-08-12, 16:24
Post: #22
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
From the Konfig manual:

"If you are using both the Exakt outputs and the analogue outputs in a non-Surround setup then make sure that Konfig > Device > "Dual Analogue/Exakt Stereo Output" has been enabled. (Davaar55 onwards)
If you want to use a Sub-woofer with the Stereo speaker you can add these as a "Front Left", "Front Right" or "Mono" channel. If you declare this as "LFE" then this output will only be available with HDMI surround playback
Note: using both Analogue and Exakt output then the analogue output will occur approx 45mS BEFORE the Exakt playback."


Well, now I'm confused! It seems to be suggesting that in an Exakt system you can use a sub connected to the analog outputs, even in non HDMI mode, but regardless of HDMI mode or not, the analog output will be 45ms ahead of the exakt output. Could this be a mistake in the manual and it should be the other way round?

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2017-08-12, 18:24
Post: #23
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
Exakt takes 40 to 45ms to be calculated, so the main speakers will lag behind the sub.
Except introducing a delay yourself between the DSM and the Exaktbox and the sub (you can buy devices for this), there is not much you can do about it. To calculate the phase differences correctly the DSM needs soms time. The frequencies that lag behind need to be re-alligned, and I think there needs to be some adjustment for ringing effects, but I'm not sure about the latter.
But no matter what, Exakt lags behind analogue.

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2017-08-12, 18:51
Post: #24
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
Nooooo, Exakt is leagues ahead Wink

Pretty sure it's only hdmi sources that will be appropriately delayed. If I tell Konfig I have analogue speakers attached to the Ds, it warns me that they will be out-of-synch.
It's all pretty academic really as in the vast majority of cases you'll have a bass amp that you can plug the sub into.

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2017-08-12, 22:19 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-12 22:22 by Catweazle.)
Post: #25
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
(2017-08-12 18:51)phino Wrote:  It's all pretty academic really as in the vast majority of cases you'll have a bass amp that you can plug the sub into.
Well, I thought of this option as well, until my dealer threw in the option to use the analog and Exakt outputs simultaneously. The question remains, however, how the Exakt filter is filtering the signal for the bass drivers. If it's just a lowpass filter we are fine. BUT if it is a bandpass, keeping 'seismic' waves away from the AV 5140 bass, the subwoofer won't 'see' the deeper notes.
And finally the crossover of the sub will add it's own delay as well. Looks like an interesting challenge either way.
Maybe, some compensation is possible by delivering a fake position to space optimisation? Did anyone here ever tried this?
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2017-08-12, 22:22 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-12 22:27 by Music at Home.)
Post: #26
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
(2017-08-12 18:24)Tin Wrote:  Exakt takes 40 to 45ms to be calculated, so the main speakers will lag behind the sub.
Except introducing a delay yourself between the DSM and the Exaktbox and the sub (you can buy devices for this), there is not much you can do about it. To calculate the phase differences correctly the DSM needs soms time. The frequencies that lag behind need to be re-alligned, and I think there needs to be some adjustment for ringing effects, but I'm not sure about the latter.
But no matter what, Exakt lags behind analogue.

Yes, understood, but the Konfig manual says that the "Analogue output will occur approx 45mS BEFORE the Exakt playback.". So that means the Exakt link outputs are already lagging behind the analog outputs before they get even more delayed in the Exaktbox. I think that must be a mistake in the manual and its the other way around, the DSM's analog outputs are 45ms behind the Exaktlink outputs so that following the lag in the Exaktbox both outputs are back in sync.

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2017-08-12, 22:28
Post: #27
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
(2017-08-12 22:19)Catweazle Wrote:  
(2017-08-12 18:51)phino Wrote:  It's all pretty academic really as in the vast majority of cases you'll have a bass amp that you can plug the sub into.
Well, I thought of this option as well, until my dealer threw in the option to use the analog and Exakt outputs simultaneously. The question remains, however, how the Exakt filter is filtering the signal for the bass drivers. If it's just a lowpass filter we are fine. BUT if it is a bandpass, keeping 'seismic' waves away from the AV 5140 bass, the subwoofer won't 'see' the deeper notes.
And finally the crossover of the sub will add it's own delay as well. Looks like an interesting challenge either way.
Maybe, some compensation is possible by delivering a fake position to space optimisation? Did anyone here ever tried this?

I don't think a fake position in SO/SO+ will make any difference - not without qn Exaktbox-Sub. Of course, you could plug it in to the KRDSM and put it an actual physical distance away that matches the Exakt delay, but without an Exaktbox-sub, SO/+ won't change the timing of the signal.

I recently had to work without my Exaktbox Sub and had it plugged into the bass output of the Exaktbox. It certainly still worked, so you have nothing to worry on that score.

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2017-08-13, 08:16
Post: #28
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
(2017-08-12 22:22)Music at Home Wrote:  
(2017-08-12 18:24)Tin Wrote:  Exakt takes 40 to 45ms to be calculated, so the main speakers will lag behind the sub.
Except introducing a delay yourself between the DSM and the Exaktbox and the sub (you can buy devices for this), there is not much you can do about it. To calculate the phase differences correctly the DSM needs soms time. The frequencies that lag behind need to be re-alligned, and I think there needs to be some adjustment for ringing effects, but I'm not sure about the latter.
But no matter what, Exakt lags behind analogue.

Yes, understood, but the Konfig manual says that the "Analogue output will occur approx 45mS BEFORE the Exakt playback.". So that means the Exakt link outputs are already lagging behind the analog outputs before they get even more delayed in the Exaktbox. I think that must be a mistake in the manual and its the other way around, the DSM's analog outputs are 45ms behind the Exaktlink outputs so that following the lag in the Exaktbox both outputs are back in sync.
You read it wrong.

The text only mentions playback which is the -end result- coming out of the speakers. Only when using HDMI as an input will there is some caching mechanism to delay the analogue outputs.
So, when not using HDMI, the analogue playback is 45ms ahead from the playback through Exakt.
This is what people have been experiencing too, so it all makes sense.
This is also why I don't have Exakt. I would have to make too much adaptations in my setup to get rid of those dreaded 45ms that its out of my reach.

Technically Linn could have put the analogue delay further into the stream, so outside the HDMI path, but that would mean all DSs would have to have that logic too, making those unnessesarely expensive and complicated. I have no idea if that would complicate the boards enough to have audible consequences, but as it is, the delay mechanism is in the HDMI path of DSMs only.

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2017-08-13, 09:37
Post: #29
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
Ah, with you, so what they are saying is that even though in Konfig you can assign a sub (or sub's) to the analog outputs (in non-HDMI mode) it won't have a delay applied and therefore will be ahead of the Exakt speakers. So not a lot of point doing it really.

The way I'd read it, that last sentence looked like it applied to all sources (as it wasn't specific) but they'd just made a mistake with describing the relative delay between the outputs.

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2017-08-13, 10:20 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-13 10:21 by Tin.)
Post: #30
RE: Linn's Summer Promotion 2017
(2017-08-13 09:37)Music at Home Wrote:  Ah, with you, so what they are saying is that even though in Konfig you can assign a sub (or sub's) to the analog outputs (in non-HDMI mode) it won't have a delay applied and therefore will be ahead of the Exakt speakers. So not a lot of point doing it really.

The way I'd read it, that last sentence looked like it applied to all sources (as it wasn't specific) but they'd just made a mistake with describing the relative delay between the outputs.
Exactly. I admit that I had to read it a couple of times too.

Well, you can buy a delay that you put between the DSM and the sub to fix the difference, but personally I figured I'd rather have analogue Aktiv without any delays instead of digital crossovers fixing the phase in my speakers and adding a somewhat bodged subwoofer.
That wouldn't be as much of a problem if my subs were used for surround only, but I have 212s so I need the subs to make them full range too.
So my subs are dual purpose: enlarging the speakers and doing grunty effects in movies.

If your speakers are full range and you only want the sub to do movies, you can buy a dsp to give a 45ms delay to the sub.

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