Linn Forums

Current time: 2017-10-19, 11:41 Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Linn Forums / Linn Music Systems & Hi-fi Separates / Network Music Players & Music Streamers / Space Optimisation v / SO and Practical Position

Post Reply 
SO and Practical Position
2017-06-24, 19:40
Post: #11
RE: SO and Practical Position
(2017-06-24 19:30)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-06-24 16:34)phino Wrote:  If like me you've been intrigued by the mysterious 'Practical Speaker Positioning' in SO/SO+, I think this is what it looks like in reality...

[Image: attachment.php?aid=10875]


There's a separate filter for each speaker with a very wide bandwidth and not very deep. Frequency in this case is 64.8 Hz, depth is 3.7 dB and bandwidth 1.32 Octaves.

I had visions of massively complex troughs and ridges made up of multiple filters!

If you go 'the other way' and tell it that your speakers' practical positions are farther out into the room and the ideal positions are closer to the walls, it does boost rather than cut those frequencies.

Tell it that the practical and ideal positions are identical and it simply doesn't create a filter - as you'd expect.

Maybe not the most useful information ever, but I think it's good to know what's actually happening when you switch these things on.

Hi Phino,

I am not sure that the frequency at 64.8 Hz is generated for the practical position only.

SPACE optimization seems to generate these very wide bandwidth room modes under a few situations.

For example, I usually see these type of generated room modes if I create a new custom filter at a specific frequency , and then SPACE will automatically populate the bandwidth as having a very wide octave width.

I don't know why it does that, but I usually reduce the bandwidth significantly, otherwise the mids and highs can be quite muddy.

I usually have the ideal and practical position the same in my system.

Hi Paul,

The point is that Konfig doesn't show you the re-positioning filters. You can't see them or adjust them. I just thought it would be interesting to see what they looked like. Assuming you use the re-positioning facility of course.
I think you mean the default bandwidth for custom filters, that is very wide at over 2 octaves - but it's not calculated, it's just the default value for a newly used custom filter.

ADs/2 -> Klimax Exaktbox/1 -> Silvers -> 2xKCT/D -> K200 -> Ninka
Exaktbox Sub - BK Sub
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-24, 21:33 (This post was last modified: 2017-06-24 22:10 by Briain.)
Post: #12
RE: SO and Practical Position
(2017-06-24 19:30)Paulssurround Wrote:  ...then SPACE will automatically populate the bandwidth as having a very wide octave width.

I don't know why it does that...

My assumptions for that excess width would be as per the below:

1. Wider dips facilitate dealing with a wider range of ambient room temperature variations.
2. Wider dips will result in less severe phase wigulations (chew on that new word Mr Google translator) either side of the dip.
3. When last at Linn, I choried (Scottish word for 'stole') the Linn Design calculator (they only had the one) and thus now, Phil Budd is using an abacus fashioned from lots of Ekos counterweights slid up and down a whittled-down broom handle (and the poor cleaner has sore knees as he's having to manually pick up all the empty beer tins).
4. Ian Wilson spilled his beer over the book of log tables, so now they have to spread the dips to accommodate the lack of nifty sums that were hither to available to them.
5. Linn Design are all now 'getting on a bit', so it's likely getting quite tricky to see narrow dips on a computer screen (in fact, for most of them seeing the screen at at all could be really quite challenging; last time I was there, I saw one ageing engineer trying to obtain an FFT result for over an hour, before he realised he had been pushing the cappuccino button the adjacent coffee machine; he only realised his mistake from the hot and wet feet resulting from 10 errant cappuccino requests).
6. The Linn Design project manager whips them if they stray too far from the 'straight and narrow', so now they err on the wide side to avoid sustaining injuries at the workplace.
7. I work in the GHz zones, but Linn only deal with audio frequencies (where tolerance is totally irrelevant) so who cares how wide the dips are?

Tee hee hee; 1 & 2 might be accurate, 3 - 6 might (hopefully) raise a few chortles in the factory, but 7 is most likely (and justifiably) going to result in me ending up with a very flattened nose and busted knee-caps, I reckons! Tongue Tongue Tongue

Big Grin

(2017-06-24 19:35)phino Wrote:  ...Maybe you could get some of that acoustically transparent cinema screen stuff to replace your side walls Smile

I reckon a few rows of whisky barrels might work very well (though I likely won't work very well after inhaling all the fumes from them; I'm sure willing to give it a try, though; just one of the hellish sacrifices that we endure in the quest for pure sound).

Bri Tongue

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-25, 01:33
Post: #13
RE: SO and Practical Position
(2017-06-24 19:40)phino Wrote:  
(2017-06-24 19:30)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-06-24 16:34)phino Wrote:  If like me you've been intrigued by the mysterious 'Practical Speaker Positioning' in SO/SO+, I think this is what it looks like in reality...

[Image: attachment.php?aid=10875]


There's a separate filter for each speaker with a very wide bandwidth and not very deep. Frequency in this case is 64.8 Hz, depth is 3.7 dB and bandwidth 1.32 Octaves.

I had visions of massively complex troughs and ridges made up of multiple filters!

If you go 'the other way' and tell it that your speakers' practical positions are farther out into the room and the ideal positions are closer to the walls, it does boost rather than cut those frequencies.

Tell it that the practical and ideal positions are identical and it simply doesn't create a filter - as you'd expect.

Maybe not the most useful information ever, but I think it's good to know what's actually happening when you switch these things on.

Hi Phino,

I am not sure that the frequency at 64.8 Hz is generated for the practical position only.

SPACE optimization seems to generate these very wide bandwidth room modes under a few situations.

For example, I usually see these type of generated room modes if I create a new custom filter at a specific frequency , and then SPACE will automatically populate the bandwidth as having a very wide octave width.

I don't know why it does that, but I usually reduce the bandwidth significantly, otherwise the mids and highs can be quite muddy.

I usually have the ideal and practical position the same in my system.

Hi Paul,

The point is that Konfig doesn't show you the re-positioning filters. You can't see them or adjust them. I just thought it would be interesting to see what they looked like. Assuming you use the re-positioning facility of course.
I think you mean the default bandwidth for custom filters, that is very wide at over 2 octaves - but it's not calculated, it's just the default value for a newly used custom filter.

Thanks Phino,

I learned something new.


(2017-06-24 21:33)Briain Wrote:  
(2017-06-24 19:30)Paulssurround Wrote:  ...then SPACE will automatically populate the bandwidth as having a very wide octave width.

I don't know why it does that...

My assumptions for that excess width would be as per the below:

1. Wider dips facilitate dealing with a wider range of ambient room temperature variations.
2. Wider dips will result in less severe phase wigulations (chew on that new word Mr Google translator) either side of the dip.
3. When last at Linn, I choried (Scottish word for 'stole') the Linn Design calculator (they only had the one) and thus now, Phil Budd is using an abacus fashioned from lots of Ekos counterweights slid up and down a whittled-down broom handle (and the poor cleaner has sore knees as he's having to manually pick up all the empty beer tins).
4. Ian Wilson spilled his beer over the book of log tables, so now they have to spread the dips to accommodate the lack of nifty sums that were hither to available to them.
5. Linn Design are all now 'getting on a bit', so it's likely getting quite tricky to see narrow dips on a computer screen (in fact, for most of them seeing the screen at at all could be really quite challenging; last time I was there, I saw one ageing engineer trying to obtain an FFT result for over an hour, before he realised he had been pushing the cappuccino button the adjacent coffee machine; he only realised his mistake from the hot and wet feet resulting from 10 errant cappuccino requests).
6. The Linn Design project manager whips them if they stray too far from the 'straight and narrow', so now they err on the wide side to avoid sustaining injuries at the workplace.
7. I work in the GHz zones, but Linn only deal with audio frequencies (where tolerance is totally irrelevant) so who cares how wide the dips are?

Tee hee hee; 1 & 2 might be accurate, 3 - 6 might (hopefully) raise a few chortles in the factory, but 7 is most likely (and justifiably) going to result in me ending up with a very flattened nose and busted knee-caps, I reckons! Tongue Tongue Tongue

Big Grin

Thanks Briain,

I spoke with Manuel, the cleaner at Linn, who has now gone for knee surgery, because his knees no longer work well from crawling around the floor, picking up broken and smashed booze bottles and beer tins without a proper broom and handle.

Philbo has had to resort to calculating the numbers by counting on his hands and toes, so this limits the SPACE optimization calculations to numbers up to 20.

If they can line up all the folks in the Linn R&D section, they can count to a higher number, but sometimes are delayed due to washroom breaks, coffee breaks and happy hour. This lack of a proper calculator significantly shortens the work day to just a few hours each day, so the research is much delayed.

It is not a very efficient calculator, but the bandwidths are just a rude suggestion anyway. Rolleyes

I did notice the facial recognition cameras at Linn, last time I was there, and alarms did sound when you and I walked through the door. I think Linn were thinking of hiring a couple of goons to break knee caps, if we show up gain?

Next time we will have to wear our Philbo and Gilad masks. Tongue

Exakt Surround 5.0:
AEDSM, Exakt Akubariks, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-25, 08:14
Post: #14
RE: SO and Practical Position
Just move the virtual ideal position until the practical position sounds best.

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [DS214play +Jitterbug, MinimServer], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 652(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-26, 21:24
Post: #15
RE: SO and Practical Position
I haven't changed my SO since it came out and just used the calculated results based on practical position. I thought I would tweak it a bit tonight and while doing this reset it to no SO. What a shock I got. Everything sounded so much better. A bit boomy compared to using SO but so much more detailed at higher volumes. I will keep it this way fo a while I think.

Bill.

AkurateDS + 2250 + Keilidhs = Deep Joy.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-26, 22:00
Post: #16
RE: SO and Practical Position
(2017-06-26 21:24)billzab Wrote:  I haven't changed my SO since it came out and just used the calculated results based on practical position. I thought I would tweak it a bit tonight and while doing this reset it to no SO. What a shock I got. Everything sounded so much better. A bit boomy compared to using SO but so much more detailed at higher volumes. I will keep it this way fo a while I think.

Bill.

It'll be interesting to see how long you leave it. I've done the same a few times after frustrating SO tuning sessions, but I've never left it switched off for more than a few hours. With SO on, you convince yourself that it'll sound truly awful switched off, but it doesn't. After all, most of us had DSs before SO was released and we managed ok then!
A lot depends on your room layout though. I'm sure there are some rooms where it isn't required at all.
The default settings, whilst pretty good are a bit too much in most cases, so it pays to persevere.

ADs/2 -> Klimax Exaktbox/1 -> Silvers -> 2xKCT/D -> K200 -> Ninka
Exaktbox Sub - BK Sub
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-27, 21:32
Post: #17
RE: SO and Practical Position
(2017-06-26 22:00)phino Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 21:24)billzab Wrote:  I haven't changed my SO since it came out and just used the calculated results based on practical position. I thought I would tweak it a bit tonight and while doing this reset it to no SO. What a shock I got. Everything sounded so much better. A bit boomy compared to using SO but so much more detailed at higher volumes. I will keep it this way fo a while I think.

Bill.

It'll be interesting to see how long you leave it. I've done the same a few times after frustrating SO tuning sessions, but I've never left it switched off for more than a few hours. With SO on, you convince yourself that it'll sound truly awful switched off, but it doesn't. After all, most of us had DSs before SO was released and we managed ok then!
A lot depends on your room layout though. I'm sure there are some rooms where it isn't required at all.
The default settings, whilst pretty good are a bit too much in most cases, so it pays to persevere.

I have had a DS since Bute and have always loved the sound. When SO appeared, I was amazed at the improvement it initially made. Interestingly, my first bunch of sizes I entered where 'close enough' to do the job. I have recently used my Hilti digital measuring tool that I use at work to enter accurate sizes and since then I am not enjoying the sound. I have also recently updated to the latest Davaar having not done so for well over a year (that's another story) and see that SO now gives a separate setting for each speaker (with some large differences in each node). I now find it a bit harsh and lacking in decent bass. I will leave it off over the summer and try SO again in the autumn when the dark nights give me more listening time.

Bill.

AkurateDS + 2250 + Keilidhs = Deep Joy.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-27, 22:32
Post: #18
RE: SO and Practical Position
(2017-06-27 21:32)billzab Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 22:00)phino Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 21:24)billzab Wrote:  I haven't changed my SO since it came out and just used the calculated results based on practical position. I thought I would tweak it a bit tonight and while doing this reset it to no SO. What a shock I got. Everything sounded so much better. A bit boomy compared to using SO but so much more detailed at higher volumes. I will keep it this way fo a while I think.

Bill.

It'll be interesting to see how long you leave it. I've done the same a few times after frustrating SO tuning sessions, but I've never left it switched off for more than a few hours. With SO on, you convince yourself that it'll sound truly awful switched off, but it doesn't. After all, most of us had DSs before SO was released and we managed ok then!
A lot depends on your room layout though. I'm sure there are some rooms where it isn't required at all.
The default settings, whilst pretty good are a bit too much in most cases, so it pays to persevere.

I have had a DS since Bute and have always loved the sound. When SO appeared, I was amazed at the improvement it initially made. Interestingly, my first bunch of sizes I entered where 'close enough' to do the job. I have recently used my Hilti digital measuring tool that I use at work to enter accurate sizes and since then I am not enjoying the sound. I have also recently updated to the latest Davaar having not done so for well over a year (that's another story) and see that SO now gives a separate setting for each speaker (with some large differences in each node). I now find it a bit harsh and lacking in decent bass. I will leave it off over the summer and try SO again in the autumn when the dark nights give me more listening time.

Bill.

Sounds like you need to review all the SO info like doors, windows, wall construction etc.
I had a bit of harshness too but a bit of sage advice from Paulssurround lead me to widen the bandwidths of the modes in the 70-80hz region. Not very much, something like 0.003 more was enough. That's where the doors and windows come in - the more of these there are and the larger they are leads to wider bandwidths being calculated. Patrition walls will give you wider and shallower notches whilst concrete will give you deep and narrow. The default is 'unknown' which is somewhere in the middle. So it pays to get those right. I take the room measurements through the listening position at the height my head is at whilst listening, but it's worth trying a cm either side of each dimension to see what sounds best.

Still, if you're happy with it switched off it's probably a good idea to leave it on the back burner as you say. Once you start fiddling too much you end up looking for problems rather than listening to music.

ADs/2 -> Klimax Exaktbox/1 -> Silvers -> 2xKCT/D -> K200 -> Ninka
Exaktbox Sub - BK Sub
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-28, 00:24
Post: #19
RE: SO and Practical Position
(2017-06-27 21:32)billzab Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 22:00)phino Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 21:24)billzab Wrote:  I haven't changed my SO since it came out and just used the calculated results based on practical position. I thought I would tweak it a bit tonight and while doing this reset it to no SO. What a shock I got. Everything sounded so much better. A bit boomy compared to using SO but so much more detailed at higher volumes. I will keep it this way fo a while I think.

Bill.

It'll be interesting to see how long you leave it. I've done the same a few times after frustrating SO tuning sessions, but I've never left it switched off for more than a few hours. With SO on, you convince yourself that it'll sound truly awful switched off, but it doesn't. After all, most of us had DSs before SO was released and we managed ok then!
A lot depends on your room layout though. I'm sure there are some rooms where it isn't required at all.
The default settings, whilst pretty good are a bit too much in most cases, so it pays to persevere.

I have had a DS since Bute and have always loved the sound. When SO appeared, I was amazed at the improvement it initially made. Interestingly, my first bunch of sizes I entered where 'close enough' to do the job. I have recently used my Hilti digital measuring tool that I use at work to enter accurate sizes and since then I am not enjoying the sound. I have also recently updated to the latest Davaar having not done so for well over a year (that's another story) and see that SO now gives a separate setting for each speaker (with some large differences in each node). I now find it a bit harsh and lacking in decent bass. I will leave it off over the summer and try SO again in the autumn when the dark nights give me more listening time.

Bill.

I know exactly what to do to get the best out of your Linn system.

It is a very easy adjustment, to fine tune your system and get it sounding its best. Big Grin

Exakt Surround 5.0:
AEDSM, Exakt Akubariks, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-28, 17:50 (This post was last modified: 2017-06-28 17:52 by billzab.)
Post: #20
RE: SO and Practical Position
(2017-06-27 22:32)phino Wrote:  
(2017-06-27 21:32)billzab Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 22:00)phino Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 21:24)billzab Wrote:  I haven't changed my SO since it came out and just used the calculated results based on practical position. I thought I would tweak it a bit tonight and while doing this reset it to no SO. What a shock I got. Everything sounded so much better. A bit boomy compared to using SO but so much more detailed at higher volumes. I will keep it this way fo a while I think.

Bill.

It'll be interesting to see how long you leave it. I've done the same a few times after frustrating SO tuning sessions, but I've never left it switched off for more than a few hours. With SO on, you convince yourself that it'll sound truly awful switched off, but it doesn't. After all, most of us had DSs before SO was released and we managed ok then!
A lot depends on your room layout though. I'm sure there are some rooms where it isn't required at all.
The default settings, whilst pretty good are a bit too much in most cases, so it pays to persevere.

I have had a DS since Bute and have always loved the sound. When SO appeared, I was amazed at the improvement it initially made. Interestingly, my first bunch of sizes I entered where 'close enough' to do the job. I have recently used my Hilti digital measuring tool that I use at work to enter accurate sizes and since then I am not enjoying the sound. I have also recently updated to the latest Davaar having not done so for well over a year (that's another story) and see that SO now gives a separate setting for each speaker (with some large differences in each node). I now find it a bit harsh and lacking in decent bass. I will leave it off over the summer and try SO again in the autumn when the dark nights give me more listening time.

Bill.

Sounds like you need to review all the SO info like doors, windows, wall construction etc.
I had a bit of harshness too but a bit of sage advice from Paulssurround lead me to widen the bandwidths of the modes in the 70-80hz region. Not very much, something like 0.003 more was enough. That's where the doors and windows come in - the more of these there are and the larger they are leads to wider bandwidths being calculated. Patrition walls will give you wider and shallower notches whilst concrete will give you deep and narrow. The default is 'unknown' which is somewhere in the middle. So it pays to get those right. I take the room measurements through the listening position at the height my head is at whilst listening, but it's worth trying a cm either side of each dimension to see what sounds best.

Still, if you're happy with it switched off it's probably a good idea to leave it on the back burner as you say. Once you start fiddling too much you end up looking for problems rather than listening to music.

Thanks Phino. I am pretty confident all my measurements and other info are correct. All my walls are plastered brick (concrete) and I do have 2 very large windows at each end of my room. I have a large lounge dining room 8.5 mtrs long x 4.1 wide. My speakers are either side of a chimney breast facing across the room. Speakers are toed in about 40mm off the square. I have tried playing about with the bandwidths but to no great improvement. I will try again later when I have the time. Cheers.

Bill.

(2017-06-28 00:24)Paulssurround Wrote:  
(2017-06-27 21:32)billzab Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 22:00)phino Wrote:  
(2017-06-26 21:24)billzab Wrote:  I haven't changed my SO since it came out and just used the calculated results based on practical position. I thought I would tweak it a bit tonight and while doing this reset it to no SO. What a shock I got. Everything sounded so much better. A bit boomy compared to using SO but so much more detailed at higher volumes. I will keep it this way fo a while I think.

Bill.

It'll be interesting to see how long you leave it. I've done the same a few times after frustrating SO tuning sessions, but I've never left it switched off for more than a few hours. With SO on, you convince yourself that it'll sound truly awful switched off, but it doesn't. After all, most of us had DSs before SO was released and we managed ok then!
A lot depends on your room layout though. I'm sure there are some rooms where it isn't required at all.
The default settings, whilst pretty good are a bit too much in most cases, so it pays to persevere.

I have had a DS since Bute and have always loved the sound. When SO appeared, I was amazed at the improvement it initially made. Interestingly, my first bunch of sizes I entered where 'close enough' to do the job. I have recently used my Hilti digital measuring tool that I use at work to enter accurate sizes and since then I am not enjoying the sound. I have also recently updated to the latest Davaar having not done so for well over a year (that's another story) and see that SO now gives a separate setting for each speaker (with some large differences in each node). I now find it a bit harsh and lacking in decent bass. I will leave it off over the summer and try SO again in the autumn when the dark nights give me more listening time.

Bill.

I know exactly what to do to get the best out of your Linn system.

It is a very easy adjustment, to fine tune your system and get it sounding its best. Big Grin

Pray tell Paul

AkurateDS + 2250 + Keilidhs = Deep Joy.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)