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SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
2017-08-09, 14:32
Post: #1
SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
Very helpful suggestion from a forum colleague to copy this post from the main DS forum to the specialist SO sub-forum.

Very grateful for any advice on the SO aspects (or indeed any other aspects).

Cheers

David


(2017-08-09 14:02)dround Wrote:  Sorry - forgot to attach the files - now are.

(2017-08-09 13:44)dround Wrote:  Hi all,

After much listening and careful comparison between lots of permutations I would like to beg the indulgence of forum members on some further observations and request for advice.

I have been listening to

1. Linn ADS/1 with Quad Elite/QSP Power Amp and Harbeth Super HL5 speakers
2. Google Chromecast Optical out into TEAC UD501 DAC to Quad etc.
3. Google Chromecast Optical out into Beresford TD7210 DAC to Quad etc.
4. Raspberry Pi/IQ Audio Pi Digi+ card optical out into TEAC UD501 DAC to Quad etc.
5. Raspberry Pi/IQ Audio Pi DAC+ to Quad etc.

I enlisted the help of a friend who is an audio enthusiast who has owned and worked with lots of kit over the years but has no experience of digital music.

I have experimented with speaker placements with assistance from said friend. I have also experimented with Sound Optimisation on the ADS. I am attaching details of my room layout and also screen shot of current SO settings.

Comments/Observations: -

1. The sound from the ADS has improved with speaker experimentation and SO settings. I have used the rule of two thirds for the 'Ideal' speaker placement; however, the peculiarities of my room shape make it difficult to enter the details of the room definitively into SO. Any advice on this would be much appreciated. The effects of SO in terms of the frequency modifications in SO seems to be to lower bass output and this has, I think, sharpened the sound and focus (musicality) but at the loss of some bass presence to my mind. Are there ways to adjust these parameters sensitively?

2. The Chromecast and TEAC DAC solution is blooming good to my ears and those of my friend. With Premium Spotify it is a really lively and open sound and just works (why is Linn/Spotify still problematic?). Playing FLAC and other files from my NAS is very enjoyable at a fraction of the cost and as my friend says "the differences are marginal".

3. The Pi/Digi+ optical out into TEAC DAC is very good indeed. There is just a fraction of more openness with the ADS. This may be related to the £8 standard Pi switched power supply and perhaps could be improved with a linear supply. Overall very impressive indeed and even closer to the Linn box.

4. The Pi/DAC+ is also very good but perhaps the least good of the solutions but still awfully close to the Linn ADS.

Glad to receive any comments from fellow forum dwellers.

Cheers

David


Attached File(s)
.pdf  Room Layout Aug 2017.pdf (Size: 182.21 KB / Downloads: 71)
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2017-08-09, 15:34
Post: #2
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
Complicated room to be sure.

As my first attempt at doing SPACE optimization on your system, I would consider the following room dimensions to enter into Konfig

I would use the width of the room at 3.55 meters

You don't give the inside length of the room, but the outer wall length of the room. That said, use whatever is the inside length of the room which may be 4.52 meters or less for the inside dimensions?

Make sure you include the large window dimensions on the front wall, as well as the door on the back wall, as a feature for the front and back wall, respectively.

I would ignore adding the features and room dimensions of the bookcase alcove on the top right, the bay window, fireplace, and the hifi kit alcove at the bottom right.

I would do some toe-in of your speakers, maybe 10-15 degrees, and listen to how that sounds?

I also notice a chair in front of the left speaker that may be changing the sound quality? Does the chair need to be there?

I did not notice the screen shots from your SPACE optimization?

Cheers

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Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-08-09, 16:10
Post: #3
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
(2017-08-09 15:34)Paulssurround Wrote:  I would ignore adding the features and room dimensions of the bookcase alcove on the top right, the bay window, fireplace, and the hifi kit alcove at the bottom right.

In relation to bay windows the advice from Linn is " ... if the window covers more than half of the wall then measure into the bay window." - it's a bit of a crude approximation requiring you to estimate whether or not it takes up 50% of the wall area or not!

Of course in my situation I experimented with these measurements and found that the "best" outcome was when I entered that room dimension as being half-way into the bay. Big Grin

Linn also say that "As the bay window along with the remainder of the front wall forms a staggered surface some smearing of room modes relating to the length of the room may occur. This can be countered by slightly increasing the bandwidth of any length modes." So that would be the width of the room and width modes for the OP.

Out of interest, what software did you use to create the room plan - very clear. Big Grin

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2017-08-09, 16:17
Post: #4
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
(2017-08-09 15:34)Paulssurround Wrote:  I did not notice the screen shots from your SPACE optimization?

Cheers

It's attached to his original post here:

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....#pid446653

It doesn't look so complicated as I thought it might. I advised David that he could add some gain to the Mode 1 to give it more bass. Would you agree Paul?

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2017-08-09, 16:22
Post: #5
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
I really like odd shaped rooms. These can often reduce or eliminate the reverberant field, allowing a reduction in the necessary absorption to "tame" the room.

Just listen .... or not
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2017-08-09, 17:06
Post: #6
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
(2017-08-09 16:17)timster Wrote:  It doesn't look so complicated as I thought it might. I advised David that he could add some gain to the Mode 1 to give it more bass. Would you agree Paul?

I'm not Paul (Big Grin) but adjusting the gain on Mode 1 is definitely the first thing to tweak.

As the OP said "The effects of SO in terms of the frequency modifications in SO seems to be to lower bass output and this has, I think, sharpened the sound and focus (musicality) but at the loss of some bass presence to my mind. "

Hopefully the Space Commander (Mr Vancouver to you and me) will be back soon

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2017-08-09, 22:11
Post: #7
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
(2017-08-09 17:06)Donald Wrote:  ... adjusting the gain on Mode 1 is definitely the first thing to tweak.

That is my experience too (and IIRC Linn's advice also), if you are adjusting in the orthodox manner. An alternative approach in an odd shaped room, is to experiment with the room dimensions where these vary. If you look at the effect on the calculated room modes when you change the dimensions, this can give you some idea of what to tweak when you deal directly with the mode filters themselves.

It is also worth remembering that changing the setting at the mode frequency by 6dB halves or doubles the output power at that frequency. The power, not the loudness, because the brain perceives loudness on the logarithmic, not the arithmetic, scale of power. Even so, an adjustment of 6dB (usually in my experience increasing the power, so going from,say, -18dB to -12dB) to Mode 1 is likely to be a good first step. If that gets you an improvement, further adjustments of plus or minus 3dB may be useful, before you go on to the next mode. The Modes interact, so leave Mode 1 adjusted when you go on to adjust Mode 2, and so on.

I still consider myself as a beginner Space Optimiser, so my tendency (as one who lacks both experience and separate measuring tools) is to leave both the frequency and the bandwidth of the calculated mode filters unchanged. That's where the expertise of people like Paul comes in. If you can't get someone with that expertise to help you, even using the basic adjustments in the ways timster, Donald and I have described can yield very good results.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-08-09, 22:27 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-10 06:49 by Paulssurround.)
Post: #8
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
(2017-08-09 22:11)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-08-09 17:06)Donald Wrote:  ... adjusting the gain on Mode 1 is definitely the first thing to tweak.

That is my experience too (and IIRC Linn's advice also), if you are adjusting in the orthodox manner. An alternative approach in an odd shaped room, is to experiment with the room dimensions where these vary. If you look at the effect on the calculated room modes when you change the dimensions, this can give you some idea of what to tweak when you deal directly with the mode filters themselves.

It is also worth remembering that changing the setting at the mode frequency by 6dB halves or doubles the output power at that frequency. The power, not the loudness, because the brain perceives loudness on the logarithmic, not the arithmetic, scale of power. Even so, an adjustment of 6dB (usually in my experience increasing the power, so going from,say, -18dB to -12dB) to Mode 1 is likely to be a good first step. If that gets you an improvement, further adjustments of plus or minus 3dB may be useful, before you go on to the next mode. The Modes interact, so leave Mode 1 adjusted when you go on to adjust Mode 2, and so on.

I still consider myself as a beginner Space Optimiser, so my tendency (as one who lacks both experience and separate measuring tools) is to leave both the frequency and the bandwidth of the calculated mode filters unchanged. That's where the expertise of people like Paul comes in. If you can't get someone with that expertise to help you, even using the basic adjustments in the ways timster, Donald and I have described can yield very good results.

David

Great advice David and Donald.

I agree, with you, and would also add gain to calculated room mode 1, but also to room modes 4 and 5.

I am not familiar with these Harbeth speakers, but did some reading up on them.

Given the size of the bass drivers, speaker placement may be a factor in determining the amount of bass, and getting more bass.

Space optimization will certainly be able to get much more bass out of the speakers, and should give much better sound quality than the other options presented, IMHO.

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Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
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2017-08-10, 10:28
Post: #9
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
Cheers for these responses, Are you saying that the room dimensions should be to tread the room as narrow width ignoring all widening features such as chimney alcove, bay windows etc?

By the way I used MS Viso for the drawings. Easy software to use.

David


(2017-08-09 16:10)Donald Wrote:  
(2017-08-09 15:34)Paulssurround Wrote:  I would ignore adding the features and room dimensions of the bookcase alcove on the top right, the bay window, fireplace, and the hifi kit alcove at the bottom right.

In relation to bay windows the advice from Linn is " ... if the window covers more than half of the wall then measure into the bay window." - it's a bit of a crude approximation requiring you to estimate whether or not it takes up 50% of the wall area or not!

Of course in my situation I experimented with these measurements and found that the "best" outcome was when I entered that room dimension as being half-way into the bay. Big Grin

Linn also say that "As the bay window along with the remainder of the front wall forms a staggered surface some smearing of room modes relating to the length of the room may occur. This can be countered by slightly increasing the bandwidth of any length modes." So that would be the width of the room and width modes for the OP.

Out of interest, what software did you use to create the room plan - very clear. Big Grin
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2017-08-10, 15:23
Post: #10
RE: SO, Odd-shaped room and other Observations
(2017-08-10 10:28)dround Wrote:  Cheers for these responses, Are you saying that the room dimensions should be to tread the room as narrow width ignoring all widening features such as chimney alcove, bay windows etc?

By the way I used MS Viso for the drawings. Easy software to use.

David


(2017-08-09 16:10)Donald Wrote:  
(2017-08-09 15:34)Paulssurround Wrote:  I would ignore adding the features and room dimensions of the bookcase alcove on the top right, the bay window, fireplace, and the hifi kit alcove at the bottom right.

In relation to bay windows the advice from Linn is " ... if the window covers more than half of the wall then measure into the bay window." - it's a bit of a crude approximation requiring you to estimate whether or not it takes up 50% of the wall area or not!

Of course in my situation I experimented with these measurements and found that the "best" outcome was when I entered that room dimension as being half-way into the bay. Big Grin

Linn also say that "As the bay window along with the remainder of the front wall forms a staggered surface some smearing of room modes relating to the length of the room may occur. This can be countered by slightly increasing the bandwidth of any length modes." So that would be the width of the room and width modes for the OP.

Out of interest, what software did you use to create the room plan - very clear. Big Grin

From your drawings, I would keep the room width at 3.55 meters, and ignore the room features I mentioned above.

You can try adding these features in, in a new SPACE optimization profile, and see if it improves or degrades the sound. In my experience though, it has not been helpful to improving sound quality.

Only listening can tell.

Exakt Surround 5.0:
Katalyst Akubariks, AEDSM, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrounds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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