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I need your advice
2017-08-16, 19:28
Post: #1
I need your advice
Hi,
Just moved from Devialet to Linn Wink I bought a Majik DSM/2 and I'm trying to setup the space optimization. I'm having a few challenges and I hope you can help me in the process.
First question. My room is opening to a larger room (see picture). The opening frame is 1.85m width, 2.65m height. Should I use the original room or the larger room?
Second question. I have a sloping roof. Left 2.7m, right is 3.95m. SO has a suggestion for a pitched roof which is not my case.
Third question: Walls are of fermacell (fibre gypsum board). Brinnel hardness is 30 N/mm2 and should me more then standard partition. WHat should I use?
Thank you so much for your help!
Best
Riccardo


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2017-08-16, 20:05 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-16 20:10 by Paulssurround.)
Post: #2
RE: I need your advice
First Question: The opening frame is 1.85m width, 2.65m height. Should I use the original room or the larger room?

I would use the room dimensions of the smaller room only, and even ignore the width and height of the opening into the larger room. If the opening had a door on it, then I would add the room opening dimensions, but as it does not appear to have a door, then I would ignore it in your first go at SPACE optimization. I would try the width of the room as 3.89 meters and depth as 3.83 m, as per your drawings.

SPACE optimization is as much an art as it is a science when it comes to adding room dimensions. It is best to try variations and see what sounds best




Second question. I have a sloping roof. Left 2.7m, right is 3.95m. SO has a suggestion for a pitched roof which is not my case.


Some people enter the median height (3.325 m) of your sloped roof, but others get better results by using the full height, in your case 3.95 m.




Third question: Walls are of fermacell (fibre gypsum board). Brinnel hardness is 30 N/mm2 and should me more then standard partition. WHat should I use?

I would use "partition", as the choice in Konfig for building materials, as there would still be some give to the walls, from low frequency sound.





This may be helpful in your setup of SPACE optimization?

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=36884

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Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-08-16, 20:51 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-16 20:53 by DavidHB.)
Post: #3
RE: I need your advice
(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  Just moved from Devialet to Linn Wink I bought a Majik DSM/2 and I'm trying to setup the space optimization. I'm having a few challenges and I hope you can help me in the process.

It's important not to be too literal or too fussy in making your selections. Space Optimisation is a system that is designed to be 'tuned' by trial and error, particularly with awkward room shapes.

(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  First question. My room is opening to a larger room (see picture). The opening frame is 1.85m width, 2.65m height. Should I use the original room or the larger room?

The opening is nearly (but not quite) half the length of the wall. This means, on Linn's advice, that you would use the dimensions of the smaller room. I would also add in a single glazed window, the full size of the opening (2.65m x 1.85m). If that doesn't work out, save that set of measurements, try again with the full width including the larger room and see which you prefer.

(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  Second question. I have a sloping roof. Left 2.7m, right is 3.95m. SO has a suggestion for a pitched roof which is not my case.

Your case is similar to the 'angled wall' example in the Linn documentation, but turned through 90 degrees. So, using that example as your guide, start by using the average ceiling height. Also following the logic of the Linn advice in the example, you might have to reduce the attenuation and increase the bandwidth of any height mode filters that are calculated for your room.

The ceiling in my listening room is much more awkward than yours. Not only does it have high and low sections, but the high section is sloping along two sides (one of them over the speakers) and across one corner. I just had to try different heights to find out which sounded best.

(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  Third question: Walls are of fermacell (fibre gypsum board). Brinnel hardness is 30 N/mm2 and should me more then standard partition. What should I use?

The fibre board is presumably on some kind of wood or metal frame. This is similar to the way stud partition walls are commonly made in the UK (these days they also usually incorporate some kind of insulation, which will tend to have sound deadening properties). As the choice is between partition and concrete, what you have is much closer to the former.

I hope these ideas help. Incidentally, if you can get a friend to help you with your testing, you will find that it helps to preserve your sanity. In situations of this kind, two pairs of ears are a lot better than one.

David

P.S. I now see that Paul got in ahead of me. He has a lot more experience of these things than I do. But I offer my thoughts for what they are worth.

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-08-16, 22:08
Post: #4
RE: I need your advice
(2017-08-16 20:51)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  Just moved from Devialet to Linn Wink I bought a Majik DSM/2 and I'm trying to setup the space optimization. I'm having a few challenges and I hope you can help me in the process.

It's important not to be too literal or too fussy in making your selections. Space Optimisation is a system that is designed to be 'tuned' by trial and error, particularly with awkward room shapes.

(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  First question. My room is opening to a larger room (see picture). The opening frame is 1.85m width, 2.65m height. Should I use the original room or the larger room?

The opening is nearly (but not quite) half the length of the wall. This means, on Linn's advice, that you would use the dimensions of the smaller room. I would also add in a single glazed window, the full size of the opening (2.65m x 1.85m). If that doesn't work out, save that set of measurements, try again with the full width including the larger room and see which you prefer.

(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  Second question. I have a sloping roof. Left 2.7m, right is 3.95m. SO has a suggestion for a pitched roof which is not my case.

Your case is similar to the 'angled wall' example in the Linn documentation, but turned through 90 degrees. So, using that example as your guide, start by using the average ceiling height. Also following the logic of the Linn advice in the example, you might have to reduce the attenuation and increase the bandwidth of any height mode filters that are calculated for your room.

The ceiling in my listening room is much more awkward than yours. Not only does it have high and low sections, but the high section is sloping along two sides (one of them over the speakers) and across one corner. I just had to try different heights to find out which sounded best.

(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  Third question: Walls are of fermacell (fibre gypsum board). Brinnel hardness is 30 N/mm2 and should me more then standard partition. What should I use?

The fibre board is presumably on some kind of wood or metal frame. This is similar to the way stud partition walls are commonly made in the UK (these days they also usually incorporate some kind of insulation, which will tend to have sound deadening properties). As the choice is between partition and concrete, what you have is much closer to the former.

I hope these ideas help. Incidentally, if you can get a friend to help you with your testing, you will find that it helps to preserve your sanity. In situations of this kind, two pairs of ears are a lot better than one.

David

P.S. I now see that Paul got in ahead of me. He has a lot more experience of these things than I do. But I offer my thoughts for what they are worth.

I like your advice David.

It all makes sense to me, and worth a try.

Cheers
Paul

Exakt Surround 5.0:
Katalyst Akubariks, AEDSM, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrounds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-08-17, 08:04
Post: #5
RE: I need your advice
Thank you guys for the quick replies!
I'll start today with your suggestions and see what happens. I've just created Paul's tune-dem playlist! I'll keep you posted on the progress.
BTW, I was wondering how to deal with the ideal position. I tried the reverse process and I set an arbitrary position 1m from the side wall and 1m from the front wall, and I noticed that this doesn't really change the final optimization. Am I wrong?
Cheers
Riccardo
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2017-08-17, 08:47
Post: #6
RE: I need your advice
(2017-08-17 08:04)zulizu Wrote:  Thank you guys for the quick replies!
I'll start today with your suggestions and see what happens. I've just created Paul's tune-dem playlist! I'll keep you posted on the progress.
BTW, I was wondering how to deal with the ideal position. I tried the reverse process and I set an arbitrary position 1m from the side wall and 1m from the front wall, and I noticed that this doesn't really change the final optimization. Am I wrong?
Cheers
Riccardo

Are you able to physically move the speakers? In which case you should turn off Space Optimisation and move them about until you find where they sound best. Rule of thumb is the CARDAS method (outlined here).
That will then become the ideal in SO when you move them back to their practical place.

Or you can do the same virtually with SO turned on and practical position fixed, and move the ideal position about using the same rule of thumb.

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2017-08-17, 09:41 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-17 09:47 by DavidHB.)
Post: #7
RE: I need your advice
(2017-08-17 08:47)timster Wrote:  Are you able to physically move the speakers? In which case you should turn off Space Optimisation and move them about until you find where they sound best. Rule of thumb is the CARDAS method (outlined here).
That will then become the ideal in SO when you move them back to their practical place.

Or you can do the same virtually with SO turned on and practical position fixed, and move the ideal position about using the same rule of thumb.

All good advice. Note also that you don't have to use the separate practical and ideal positions if your speakers are at or near the ideal, or (perhaps because of room complications) you have difficulty in working out where the 'ideal' is. And you can use any domestically impossible position you know sounds better than the practical position as the 'ideal'.

That's the beauty of Space Optimisation. You can tune it in any way that you wish, changing each parameter in turn to discover what improves things and what doesn't. My advice would be to start as simply as you can, and, as you have an odd-shaped listening room (don't we all?), first adjust the room dimensions to what sounds best, and only then work on individual mode filters (always starting with the lowest and working up) and the practical/ideal position.

This implies that you will do quite a lot of individual listening tests. As I have already said, it will help to have a friend with you to help make the judgements. Also keep each test short (use Linn's Tune Dem method), and stop (or at least pause for suitable refreshment!) as soon as you feel any fatigue.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-08-18, 07:45
Post: #8
RE: I need your advice
(2017-08-16 20:51)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-08-16 19:28)zulizu Wrote:  Third question: Walls are of fermacell (fibre gypsum board). Brinnel hardness is 30 N/mm2 and should me more then standard partition. What should I use?

The fibre board is presumably on some kind of wood or metal frame. This is similar to the way stud partition walls are commonly made in the UK (these days they also usually incorporate some kind of insulation, which will tend to have sound deadening properties). As the choice is between partition and concrete, what you have is much closer to the former.

If the actual construction lies between 'partition' and 'concrete' you can always try 'unknown'. The absorption/transmission of the 'unknown' selection in Konfig is always the mean of the other two.

Phil.
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2017-08-20, 14:08
Post: #9
RE: I need your advice
A quick update on my journey to the Space Optimization.
I set up my room as the smaller room. Only the left window. I used partition for the walls and concrete for the floor and the ceiling. I used 3.2m as height.

Optimization for 4 resonance frequencies:
1. (L) 44.22 -27,93 0.076761
2. (H) 53.75 -26,42 0.063148
3. (LW) 63.02 -11,34 0.053858 (right only)
4. (LH) 69.60 -24,04 0.048769

This is the REW take of the room withoud SO (red) vs with SO (blue).

   

You can notice that I've a big resonance around 46Hz, something in the 60HZish and also something around 87Hz. For the 87Hz peak I created a custom filter 87.30 -6 0.048769. Actually the picture is showing this filter applied.

Then I managed to get a flatter response.

1. (L) 46.22 -27,93 0.076761 : moved to better cover the real reasonance
2. (H) 51.81 -15 0.063148 : this is the original freq when height is 3.32m
3. (LW) 62.4 -11,34 0.053858 : slightly moved to the first peak
4. (LH) 69.60 0 : I don't think I had a real issue here
5. 87.30 -6 0.048769: added custom filter

   

What do you think of the first result? Should I do something different?
BTW: I didn't understand ho to calculate octaves. Could you explain the math behind?

Thanks!
Riccardo
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2017-08-20, 15:33
Post: #10
RE: I need your advice
My strong advice would be not to attempt to tune Space Optimisation using REW or similar tools. As advised by Linn, you need to listen and compare (Tune Dem). What sounds better is better.

Tools such as REW, used judiciously, may help point you in the right direction, when, after listening tests, you feel you need to try further adjustments. But there is no substitute for listening at each stage of the adjustment process. A flat (or flatter) response has no merit in itself. Only what sounds better (or, if you are lucky, best) has merit.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
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