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Exakted Killer Keltiks
2017-09-24, 01:42
Post: #21
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
(2017-09-24 00:57)finster Wrote:  Well its been a couple of weeks now with the Exakt'd Keltiks and one very interesting journey thus far - let me fill you in...

Started off with my system using the Linn standard Keltik XO model based on the 007/38 drivers - immediately sound was groovy as I mentioned in my original post. But was aware that this was a low cost of entry option (cost being effort) for me and there was more to come with XOs specifically measured to my drive units. So I began my foray into the world of ExaktDesign in search of optimal digital bliss...

First to admit I only have a rudimentary knowledge of crossover design, basically I get the principles involved but like to think I am smart enough and willing to learn the nuances as needed. I think I can say from my couple of weeks experience with Linn's ExaktDesign solution they make things fairly simple to get going and put together an adequate XO model, but I found out as I progressed deeper to really to get the absolute best out of your speakers (if they are non-standard) takes a lot of time, measuring, attention to detail and learning. For instance I had no idea they difference between a 2nd order roll off and 6th, let alone significance of a "butterworth" compared to "linkwitz-riley" type!

As it turned out Linn support was stunning (in the shape of Philbo) - with patience and no hint of condescension he took me through the entire process.

Day 1&2
Measure Drive units
I had to build a basic little circuit, that gets plugged into my PC soundcard and the other end driver connection at back speakers
Run REW (room equaliztion wizard) free software which measures the impedance response of the drive unit.
I measured all my drive units on the left and right speakers and saved the files.
As it turned out Phil spotted a problem, my isobarik bass units need to be measured as a system not individually as I only have a 6 channel exaktbox (therefore 1 channel per speaker for the bass). Phil explained, that's why I was seeing a double resonance hump on my bass measurement graphs.
So another pair of banana plugs added to me measurement circuit and bass was updated. Much happier graph.

Days 3/4/5/6
Now with measurements taken I get to translate these into key parameters that ExaktDesign needs. Again Linn/Philbo makes this very easy by providing a little spreadsheet. Using REW your analyse your impedance graphs for each drive unit and capture key points of intersection on the chart and plug the results into the spreadsheet. It should be straightforward but I made a couple of mistakes, again Phil was kind enough to review my numbers and keep me straight. The spreadsheet is invaluable for sure, but for the novice like myself more explanation would probably help. I believe Philbo is planning to put together some tutorial videos which will absolutely help here.
I built many XOs over the course of the first few days, but was completely thrown by the fact that whatever XOs I tried that I built through ExaktDesign - they were much quieter than the Linn Keltik standard XOs. I immediately thought I had messed up somewhere such was the difference. I even had a back and forth email thread with SunbeamGLS about this in case he had experienced something similar - but nope.
As it turned out, for Linn's version of the Keltik XOs gain is added to match the sound levels with similar analogue based XO systems.
Once I had this piece of info it gave me confidence to push on.

Days 7-Now
I was fairly happy with my custom XOs, until I listened to what Phil had built for me (or as he put it "tossed together for you"). He had my original measurements and could not believe he took the time put together a revised XO for me and an explanation of some of the anomalies with my mid range drivers and how he adjusted for them. I made some adjustments to what Phil sent me across the levels for the drive units (bass was too much) - this is due to the gain on my Bryston being higher than the Tundras and Phil not having the benefit of listening to it playback. The system sounds so good now, bass has nice weight and definition and everything feels integrated with flow of music. Phil has set me on the path (oh wise one) plenty of homework to come for sure.

Right now I am just enjoying the music. Just signed up for Tidal Hi-res also Smile

more to come for sure...

Great story Finster.

You are on your way to becoming a speaker and crossover designer. Big Grin

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2017-09-24, 08:15 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-24 16:51 by sunbeamgls.)
Post: #22
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
Thanks for the update Finster, congrats on taking the plunge and getting a good result. I wish it were so simple for a ported design...

FYI, an Exaktbox 10 will give you even better bass as the dual Exakt engines allow you to be more accurate with the bass modelling, but you probably didn't want to know that just now... Smile

Main: AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AExaktbox10; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, AVSeKretan
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2017-09-24, 08:47
Post: #23
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
Good to know that Exakt Design is alive by reading a success story.

If someone wants to donate me 3 Exaktbox-6s, I'll start and measure my Komponent 106 centre and go Exakt as well. Smile

Tin can telephone system.
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2017-09-26, 07:44
Post: #24
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
(2017-09-24 08:47)Tin Wrote:  Good to know that Exakt Design is alive by reading a success story.

If someone wants to donate me 3 Exaktbox-6s, I'll start and measure my Komponent 106 centre and go Exakt as well. Smile

Komponent filters are on the way, shouldn't be long now...
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2017-09-26, 08:00
Post: #25
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
(2017-09-26 07:44)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  
(2017-09-24 08:47)Tin Wrote:  Good to know that Exakt Design is alive by reading a success story.

If someone wants to donate me 3 Exaktbox-6s, I'll start and measure my Komponent 106 centre and go Exakt as well. Smile

Komponent filters are on the way, shouldn't be long now...

Oh well Tin, looks like you're going to get half of what you need...

Main: AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AExaktbox10; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, AVSeKretan
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2017-09-26, 10:36 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-26 10:38 by Tin.)
Post: #26
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
(2017-09-26 07:44)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  
(2017-09-24 08:47)Tin Wrote:  Good to know that Exakt Design is alive by reading a success story.

If someone wants to donate me 3 Exaktbox-6s, I'll start and measure my Komponent 106 centre and go Exakt as well. Smile

Komponent filters are on the way, shouldn't be long now...
Thank you Phil, I'm very glad for that, even though I can't afford to go Exakt.
I am curious about the performance of Exakted Komponent speakers (*). They were the ones that pulled me into this madness, so even though they're hardly the pride of Glasgow, they do have a special meaning for me.

*) but I did prefer them run passively by an AV5125/D over Aktively by a Chakra 5100/D and Majik 6100.

(2017-09-26 08:00)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2017-09-26 07:44)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  
(2017-09-24 08:47)Tin Wrote:  Good to know that Exakt Design is alive by reading a success story.

If someone wants to donate me 3 Exaktbox-6s, I'll start and measure my Komponent 106 centre and go Exakt as well. Smile

Komponent filters are on the way, shouldn't be long now...

Oh well Tin, looks like you're going to get half of what you need...
Yes, I'm getting the affordable part for free...still, I'm not complaining.

Tin can telephone system.
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2017-09-26, 11:41
Post: #27
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
@Philbo: can you disclose whether the Komponent 106 will need 3 or 4 channels of amplification? I currently have an AV5125/D and M6100 available for my 106 and 104s, and personally would prefer to keep the AV5125/D (if it still works that is).

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2017-09-28, 09:43
Post: #28
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
(2017-09-26 11:41)Tin Wrote:  @Philbo: can you disclose whether the Komponent 106 will need 3 or 4 channels of amplification? I currently have an AV5125/D and M6100 available for my 106 and 104s, and personally would prefer to keep the AV5125/D (if it still works that is).

The Komponent 106 is a four way speaker, so it will need four channels of amplification.
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2017-10-01, 13:12
Post: #29
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
Following with much interest...

Finster, have you now managed to discover the original spec. for Keltik/aktiv analogue cards, i.e. crossover frequencies, roll-off orders and type? I have a recollection from somewhere that they are 4th order LR, 200Hz and 2.8kHz? Would be good to have this corrected/confirmed.

Pleased to hear that you are receiving any required help and support from Linn / Philbo. Exakt Design makes this whole approach more flexible and enticing across a broader spectrum.

Looking forward to final conclusions.
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2017-10-13, 02:30
Post: #30
RE: Exakted Killer Keltiks
(2017-10-01 13:12)fredbatch Wrote:  Following with much interest...

Finster, have you now managed to discover the original spec. for Keltik/aktiv analogue cards, i.e. crossover frequencies, roll-off orders and type? I have a recollection from somewhere that they are 4th order LR, 200Hz and 2.8kHz? Would be good to have this corrected/confirmed.

Pleased to hear that you are receiving any required help and support from Linn / Philbo. Exakt Design makes this whole approach more flexible and enticing across a broader spectrum.

Looking forward to final conclusions.

Hi Fred, I sent you a PM.

I am still playing around with filters and getting some good results - I know there is more to come. I am also using a measurement mic setup with REW, it's quite interesting to measure, make one change look at the result in REW then listen. Sometimes what looks good on a graph is not actually better to listen to, very interesting....

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Speakers - Linn Killer Keltiks, stupidly thick Linn speaker cable.
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