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A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
2017-09-14, 12:50
Post: #11
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
(2017-09-14 11:37)Donald Wrote:  
(2017-09-14 07:31)Paulssurround Wrote:  Thomas listened to the music, and did some fine tuning of the toe-in of the front speakers, and there was an obvious improvement in sound quality and sound stage.

I'm always confused when toe-in and sound stage are introduced in any Space Optimisation Thread - there is a need for clarity here or maybe its just me?? Toe-in is not mentioned in any of the SO documentation AKAIK although it has been recommended by Philbo and a number of others on occasion??

Toe-in is an essential part of tune-dem set up of a pair of speakers. I believe it has been stated on many occasions that correct tune-dem set up of the speakers is a prerequisite of Space optimisation.

Phil.
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2017-09-14, 12:58
Post: #12
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
(2017-09-14 12:50)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  Toe-in is an essential part of tune-dem set up of a pair of speakers. I believe it has been stated on many occasions that correct tune-dem set up of the speakers is a prerequisite of Space optimisation.

Phil.

That's what I'm talking about - use tune-dem to arrive at an Ideal Speaker location before trying to Optimise! Smile

And of course Paullssurround, Mr.Bear and ThomasOK followed the script. Smile

Unidisk SC | Majik LP12 | Trampolin 2 | Lingo 3.
Akurate DSM | Akurate Exaktbox 10 | 2 x Akurate 4200/1 | Exakt dual-mono Keilidhs
Raspberry Pi 2 Model B | IQAudio Pi-DAC+ | Audiolab 8000A | AR28s.
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2017-09-14, 13:10
Post: #13
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
(2017-09-14 12:50)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  
(2017-09-14 11:37)Donald Wrote:  
(2017-09-14 07:31)Paulssurround Wrote:  Thomas listened to the music, and did some fine tuning of the toe-in of the front speakers, and there was an obvious improvement in sound quality and sound stage.

I'm always confused when toe-in and sound stage are introduced in any Space Optimisation Thread - there is a need for clarity here or maybe its just me?? Toe-in is not mentioned in any of the SO documentation AKAIK although it has been recommended by Philbo and a number of others on occasion??

Toe-in is an essential part of tune-dem set up of a pair of speakers. I believe it has been stated on many occasions that correct tune-dem set up of the speakers is a prerequisite of Space optimisation.

Phil.

Phil,

I half remember from somewhere or other (possibly a factory visit - host or audience) that the 350s tend not to benefit so often from toe in (not that it shouldn't be tried, more that experience tends to them being better 'flat'). First of all is that your experience and if so, is there a reason for that - i.e. speaker design etc..

I might have dreamt this but I don't think so Big Grin. We have nevertheless tried it here but without any great success.

Cheers
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2017-09-14, 14:36
Post: #14
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
(2017-09-14 13:10)Martin H Wrote:  Phil,

I half remember from somewhere or other (possibly a factory visit - host or audience) that the 350s tend not to benefit so often from toe in (not that it shouldn't be tried, more that experience tends to them being better 'flat'). First of all is that your experience and if so, is there a reason for that - i.e. speaker design etc..

I might have dreamt this but I don't think so Big Grin. We have nevertheless tried it here but without any great success.

A couple of past posts...
https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....9#pid71749

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....#pid354122

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....#pid354201
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2017-09-14, 15:00
Post: #15
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
(2017-09-14 14:36)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  
(2017-09-14 13:10)Martin H Wrote:  Phil,

I half remember from somewhere or other (possibly a factory visit - host or audience) that the 350s tend not to benefit so often from toe in (not that it shouldn't be tried, more that experience tends to them being better 'flat'). First of all is that your experience and if so, is there a reason for that - i.e. speaker design etc..

I might have dreamt this but I don't think so Big Grin. We have nevertheless tried it here but without any great success.

A couple of past posts...
https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....9#pid71749

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....#pid354122

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....#pid354201

Perfect - and that ties in nicely. Appreciate the answer/links.
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2017-09-14, 15:32
Post: #16
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
Thanks Philbo for reminding us about these - don't know how I'm going to get all this text on a tea towel or mug??

"There is a high correlation between loudspeaker design and the requirement for toe-in. There is comparatively significantly less correlation between Exakt and toe-in"

Big GrinBig GrinBig Grin

Unidisk SC | Majik LP12 | Trampolin 2 | Lingo 3.
Akurate DSM | Akurate Exaktbox 10 | 2 x Akurate 4200/1 | Exakt dual-mono Keilidhs
Raspberry Pi 2 Model B | IQAudio Pi-DAC+ | Audiolab 8000A | AR28s.
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2017-09-14, 16:04
Post: #17
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
(2017-09-14 11:12)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Paul is very generous with his time.

No disrespect to Paul, but it would be so much better if there were more dealer magicians too. It seems that there are some who are committed to the extra effort involved, but not enough.


Thanks Sunbeam.

This has been a life changer for me, and provided me with an incredible opportunity to meet many Linn owners, and see their part of the world.

I am grateful that I am able to get some meaningful results with sound quality improvements. Smile

(2017-09-14 11:37)Donald Wrote:  
(2017-09-14 07:31)Paulssurround Wrote:  Later that morning, ThomasOK arrived.

He is a very welcoming and warm person, with great calmness and a wealth of information on all things stereo and music. He is also a great diplomat, as I can only wonder what he thought of my ideas and approach to SPACE optimization. However, he made no negative comments, and he seemed to keep quiet and let me do my thing.

Another fine narrative Paul and your biggest SO challenge to date - I like the way that you and DavidHB are drip feeding us in an episodic fashion! It would be useful and informative, however, if ThomasOK were able to share his thoughts on the process and outcomes. As you say further on "Thomas is an analogue guy, and an exceptional expert on fine tuning LP12's. I knew it would be a hard task to please him with a SPACE optimized system. "

(2017-09-14 07:31)Paulssurround Wrote:  Thomas listened to the music, and did some fine tuning of the toe-in of the front speakers, and there was an obvious improvement in sound quality and sound stage.

I'm always confused when toe-in and sound stage are introduced in any Space Optimisation Thread - there is a need for clarity here or maybe its just me?? Toe-in is not mentioned in any of the SO documentation AKAIK although it has been recommended by Philbo and a number of others on occasion??

(2017-09-14 07:31)Paulssurround Wrote:  We measured the room for SPACE optimization and entered the values into Konfig, and pressed "Optimize"......

Can't wait for the next instalment ... Big Grin

Thanks Donald

One of the reasons I am drip feeding the story is that it takes a lot of time to write each installment. I also find it makes a much more interesting thread. I thank DavidHB for being the pioneer on this. Big Grin

I look at the total picture when I visit someone's home, and SPACE optimization, sound stage and toe-in are all part of the package.

The next instalment is coming, but it is a busy day ahead.

Exakt Surround 5.0:
AEDSM, Exakt Akubariks, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-09-14, 16:10
Post: #18
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
(2017-09-14 14:36)Phil Budd (Philbo) Wrote:  
(2017-09-14 13:10)Martin H Wrote:  Phil,

I half remember from somewhere or other (possibly a factory visit - host or audience) that the 350s tend not to benefit so often from toe in (not that it shouldn't be tried, more that experience tends to them being better 'flat'). First of all is that your experience and if so, is there a reason for that - i.e. speaker design etc..

I might have dreamt this but I don't think so Big Grin. We have nevertheless tried it here but without any great success.

A couple of past posts...
https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....9#pid71749

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....#pid354122

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread....#pid354201

(2017-09-14 15:32)Donald Wrote:  Thanks Philbo for reminding us about these - don't know how I'm going to get all this text on a tea towel or mug??

"There is a high correlation between loudspeaker design and the requirement for toe-in. There is comparatively significantly less correlation between Exakt and toe-in"

Big GrinBig GrinBig Grin

Thanks Philbo for your input and clarification.

I take the room shape and size and the type of speakers into consideration when I look at toe-in. There are differences in toe-in for the 3K, 2K and single tweeter dispersion in my experience.

Mostly, I am trying to create a certain centre image and overall sound stage that sounds good to me.

When toed-in properly, it can eliminate some harshness in the upper mids and highs, from my experience.

Philbo's explanation on the distortion at the speaker cones edge provides a plausible explanation of that observation. Big Grin

Exakt Surround 5.0:
AEDSM, Exakt Akubariks, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-09-14, 17:36
Post: #19
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
Just to get this thread back to topic, I found a rare picture of mr.Bears house after Paul visited him:
[Image: daily-morning-awesomeness-40-photos-278.jpg]

Tin can telephone system.
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2017-09-14, 17:44
Post: #20
RE: A magician lives in Vancouver BC, Canada and he is called Paulssurround
(2017-09-14 17:36)Tin Wrote:  Just to get this thread back to topic, I found a rare picture of mr.Bears house after Paul visited him:
[Image: daily-morning-awesomeness-40-photos-278.jpg]

Nice, maybe I can trick Christo into wrapping my house for me Tongue

My system: LP12/Keel/Radikal/Ekos 2/Akiva/Akurate DSM1/Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L/ QNAP 219P II / Kudos /2 x C6100-D/Akubarik (active bass).
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