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Linn Forums / Linn Music Systems & Hi-fi Separates / Turntables & Record Players: Linn Sondek LP12 v / Krystal torque

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Krystal torque
2017-09-27, 23:48
Post: #21
RE: Krystal torque
(2017-09-27 22:57)Peer Gynt Wrote:  I am curious to know what wrench Thomas is using and who does the calibration.

My smallest, most precise, has first scale in inch pounds and second scale in Nm.

The Nm scale is given to two decimal places, but this is an artifact of the conversion from the primary scale. The increment on the Nm scale is .11 Nm. This is an expensive, calibrated micrometer type torque wrench. The range is from about 6 Nm to about 29. It is possible to buy one to cover the 1 to 5 range. It has an increment of adjustment of about .05 Nm.

But even after calibration, the accuracy is recognized to be no better than 10%. Precision is a measure of the increment of adjustment. Accuracy is a measure of how close the measurement is to the true value.

I understand that this torque tuning ritual is believed by some to produce hearable, repeatable, worthwhile results.

I don't want to steal the intellectual property, but I would like to know the brand and model of the wrench.
It is stated above, although I realize there is a bit to read through to get to it. Here is the relevant information: "I use a Sturtevant Richmont CAL 36/4 for setting torque. This is also used by Fredrik Lejonklou and Paolo Nobile. This driver is calibrated in both in/lbs and in Nm, which is the scale I use, and covers the range from .2 to 4.0Nm." You can easily find plenty about it by searching the name and model number, as well as many vendors selling it separately or in a kit with a case and a few tips. Many more tips are needed for all the equipment I work on.

It is not a torque wrench but a torque screwdriver. It has a range of .2Nm to 4.0Nm on one side of the barrel and 2 to 36 in lbs on the other. The markings are graduated in .2Nm increments but as I explained above there are notches in the base that the adjustment handle fits into and these can be used to make precise adjustments above and below the markings. The stated accuracy is +/- 6% form 20% to 100% capacity. New units come with a printout showing the accuracy of that specific driver measured at the factory. Note that for our purposes the absolute accuracy is not as important as precision and repeatability of adjustment as the proper setting must be determined by ear and not by just using measurements by someone else. The driver is quite popular in the US being used extensively in the computer and telecommunication industries which is why they show up frequently used.

Oh, and the point was not to sway anybody, but to explain the technique and why some of the questions about it were invalid. You have to decide for yourself if you find it can make the music better. As you said "Listen with your own ears." But do listen before you decide whether it works or not.

LP12SE Movingui • KRadikal • Kandid • Urika • Kremlin • LS-NAS • KRDS • Lejonklou Sagatun Monos & Tundra Mono 2As • JBL 3677s & 4645C Sub • NOKTable • Harmoni Mimer/Tor Racks
AV: Pioneer BDP51 BluRay • Akurate Kontrol • 2 LK280 SPARK • 4 Isobarik DMS • 2 DQ1W

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Fine-tuning LP12s since 1978!
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2017-09-28, 02:33 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 14:34 by Glyn Ruck.)
Post: #22
RE: Krystal torque
Wera that provides Linn's tools also make a broad range of torque drivers for small values.

http://products.wera.de/en/torque_tools_...odels.html See Torque Tools.

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& down into the Kg/cm N/cm range etc:

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2017-09-28, 06:59
Post: #23
RE: Krystal torque
(2017-09-27 19:19)ThomasOK Wrote:  Since the simple request that started this thread and the relatively simple answer to it have caused much speculation, and some incorrect conjecture, I thought I should try to clarify the idea of using precision torques once again.
.......
So I think that better explains what the precision torque method of LP12 setup (and indeed setup of virtually any piece of Hi-Fi gear) is all about. As always, I am glad to answer any questions people have.

Thanks for sharing your results about the applying torque on the lp12.
I really appreciate your generosity and kindness.
regards. Francesco

No man is an island. No man is a sea.
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2017-09-28, 08:00 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 10:19 by smokestack.)
Post: #24
RE: Krystal torque
(2017-09-27 19:19)ThomasOK Wrote:  ... I think all of us learned that when we graduated from the "Linn tight" school of putting a steel pipe on a hex key to see how tight we could get the arm height bolt (yes, people actually did this). ..

Yes they did...

...and not being much of a circus strongman, even today I occasionally have to resort to a nut runner on the hex key.

not to tighten it up but to get the bugger off ! Big Grin

I spent ages back in the day trying to make folks see that they were overdoing it .

If you take the arm fixing bolt as an example .
Luckily, not too many arms suffered damaged horizontal bearings as result of gorillas fitting them ....

...but an awful lot of decks were handicapped by folks not realising that in clumsily & excessively tightening the arm bolt, they were at the same time trying to lever the arm board off the subchassis !...thereby loosening it and ruining the deck's performance .Sad
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2017-09-28, 13:22 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 13:24 by Peer Gynt.)
Post: #25
RE: Krystal torque
I never understood the value in the "Linn tight" concept. That's part of why they tell you to remove the tonearm before changing a cartridge. It's also why there are so many buggared up head shells out there.

I had a vague recollection of another micrometer torque driver on one of my gunsmithing work benches. It is/was used for "accurizing" firearms. Accurizing is the term used in that industry for fine tuning to achieve the greatest possible accuracy.

I have not used that screw driver style torque wrench for about 12 years, and I'd forgotten about it.

It goes down to 10 inch pound.

Again though, the accuracy of any of these low torques is not likely to exceed 20%.

My argument is not against the idea of tuning. It's against the idea of having universally applicable values that can move from deck to deck.

And as soon as joint/fixing variations are in play ....

Well, I guess each just has to try it and see for themselves.

I do appreciate Thomas' willingness to share his experience with the forum.

Thanks.

Just listen .... or not
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2017-09-28, 13:32
Post: #26
RE: Krystal torque
(2017-09-28 13:22)Peer Gynt Wrote:  I never understood the value in the "Linn tight" concept.

Have you ever been to Glasgow? Most of the heavy metal-bashing industry of yesteryear is now gone, but it still provides much of the cultural context ... Smile

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
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2017-09-28, 14:51 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 14:52 by Peer Gynt.)
Post: #27
RE: Krystal torque
(2017-09-28 13:32)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-09-28 13:22)Peer Gynt Wrote:  I never understood the value in the "Linn tight" concept.

Have you ever been to Glasgow? Most of the heavy metal-bashing industry of yesteryear is now gone, but it still provides much of the cultural context ... Smile

David

I have not. I suspect if I were to go (in a time machine), it would explain a lot :-).

I've got several friends who went to Linn school in Glasgow back in the 80's. They're all hamfisted torkers. I won't let any of them near my turntables.

When you can see the metal deforming, or the wood crushing,or the threads stripping, it's too late.

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2017-09-28, 16:57
Post: #28
RE: Krystal torque
(2017-09-28 08:00)smokestack Wrote:  ...and not being much of a circus strongman, even today I occasionally have to resort to a nut runner on the hex key.

not to tighten it up but to get the bugger off ! Big Grin

Luckily, not too many arms suffered damaged horizontal bearings as result of gorillas fitting them ....

I have had to do the same thing at times on overtightened arm height bolts. But I do believe the bearing problems many Akito 1s have has to do with them not being able to handle that degree of tightening without damage.

(2017-09-28 13:22)Peer Gynt Wrote:  I never understood the value in the "Linn tight" concept. That's part of why they tell you to remove the tonearm before changing a cartridge. It's also why there are so many buggared up head shells out there.
The original idea of Linn tight was that most turntables at the time had things, especially cartridges, fastened rather loosely which allowed outside energy to cause movement that interfered with the ability to get music out of the groove. Getting things properly fixed reduces unwanted movement that interferes with that transducer of very tiny vibrations known as the cartridge. It just got taken too far. Actual conversation from a Hi-Fi show: Dealer to Ivor: "How do you get the Asak tight enough without breaking it?" Ivor in reply: "You don't know you are getting them tight enough if you don't break one every once in a while."

(2017-09-28 13:22)Peer Gynt Wrote:  My argument is not against the idea of tuning. It's against the idea of having universally applicable values that can move from deck to deck.

While there are definitely different torques for each different fastener, short armboard screw vs. long one, nylock nut vs. current one with star washer and the torques of all the different fasteners in an LP12 vary widely, it has been my experience that the results are indeed repeatable. Meaning the bolts that hold the AC motor to the top plate are the same from one turntable to the next as are the nuts that clamp the top plate to the plinth, etc. This is based on my experience with hundreds of LP12s and other turntables setup over the last 12 years as well as the reports of others who use the system. But it does require using the same exact driver each time so that its individual variations are taken into account.

I do have one of the Wera tools as well. The big advantages of the SR CAL 36/4 are that it covers the full range needed, which would take three separate Wera tools, and that it allows for finer adjustment.

LP12SE Movingui • KRadikal • Kandid • Urika • Kremlin • LS-NAS • KRDS • Lejonklou Sagatun Monos & Tundra Mono 2As • JBL 3677s & 4645C Sub • NOKTable • Harmoni Mimer/Tor Racks
AV: Pioneer BDP51 BluRay • Akurate Kontrol • 2 LK280 SPARK • 4 Isobarik DMS • 2 DQ1W

www.nokturneaudio.com

Fine-tuning LP12s since 1978!
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2017-09-28, 17:26 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-29 00:16 by Glyn Ruck.)
Post: #29
RE: Krystal torque
Indeed the SR CAL 36/4's range is most convenient. They look a little "industrial" but if reports are to be believed they also stay in calibration very well. They should improve the rear cover & use a spring clip for the indent ball instead of a polymer ring that fails.

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2017-09-28, 18:08
Post: #30
RE: Krystal torque
(2017-09-28 14:51)Peer Gynt Wrote:  I've got several friends who went to Linn school in Glasgow back in the 80's. They're all hamfisted torkers.

In my experience, real Glaswegians are anything but ham-fisted, especially when downing a chaser Smile. But they do tend to be determined, pugnacious and just a bit pig-headed. (Recognise anyone we know of? Smile)

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
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