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Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
2017-09-12, 14:32
Post: #1
Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
Just thought I'd share my observations on integrating a sub-woofer with SO in mind.
(Actually, auralization, or the aural equivalent of observation, would be a better word).

This may not be relevant for Exaktbox subs by the way.

Having played around over the weekend I thought I'd try starting from scratch (I have too much time on my hands I know). So I let SO do it's thing, then set all modes to 0dB (not the same as turning SO off by the way, especially in an Exakt system or if you need speaker volume offsets).

I played some music I usually play quite loud and to my great chagrin, my sub crossover was set WAY too high, as was the gain. Had I been trying to use SO and tweaking the LF modes to compensate for that rather than the room, I wondered.
It appears so.

So now my sub is properly integrated.

Going up through the calculated modes:
Lowest frequency mode (L-- @39.36) is still causing me issues even with the most gain allowed added. I turned it off. Not enough bass when on, too much when off. Will come back to that later.

Next the LW- mode @ 54.86, which I had previously dumped because it seemed to make voices (and trumpets) too shouty. Now it opens up the mids nicely and without any effort on the ears. And the bass is now balanced and not overbearing or 'woofy'. Puzzled.

Then --H @ 63.0. No discernible effect so left it as is.

L-H @ 74.29. Opens up the high frequencies a little more, but not too much. Left as is.

Highest frequency mode (L-- @ 78.2). Too much sibilance and over the top trebles. Tried adding gain to no avail. Again, may come back to that later. Turned off for now.

So my conclusion is my (L--) modes are dodgy. Or my sub is causing them to be. But anyway, it sounds best with modes 1 and 5 (both L--) set to 0dB. At least until Paul can come and actually visit and have the use of his better auralizing ears Wink

Advice though: Integrate the sub when SO is either off, or better yet with all modes to 0dB, first. Once you're happy, only then set the SO modes back on.

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
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2017-09-12, 15:26
Post: #2
RE: Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
If I remember right your inglenook is on the front wall? Have you tried measuring to that instead of all the way to the wall. Take the L frequencies calculated as a result of that and transplant them as custom modes into your proper SO profile and see if they work any better.

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2017-09-12, 15:39 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-12 15:39 by timster.)
Post: #3
RE: Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
(2017-09-12 15:26)phino Wrote:  If I remember right your inglenook is on the front wall? Have you tried measuring to that instead of all the way to the wall. Take the L frequencies calculated as a result of that and transplant them as custom modes into your proper SO profile and see if they work any better.

Yes, and there's also an open corridor to the right of the front wall. If I understand you right, you mean measure into the nook? So the room length is longer?

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
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AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 652(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
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2017-09-12, 16:42
Post: #4
RE: Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
(2017-09-12 15:39)timster Wrote:  Yes, and there's also an open corridor to the right of the front wall. If I understand you right, you mean measure into the nook? So the room length is longer?

That would be the idea. The Linn advice is to measure into a recess if it covers more than half the length of the associated wall. Clearly, this is a rule of thumb, and it may well be worth trying things both ways (with two saved configurations).

As regards the sub, does it have a phase switch or control, and did you move it from the zero position when you set up the sub? With SO (and certainly with Exakt/SO+), it's generally best to leave any phase adjustment on the sub disabled and let SO do the work.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-09-12, 17:01 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-12 17:02 by timster.)
Post: #5
RE: Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
(2017-09-12 16:42)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-09-12 15:39)timster Wrote:  Yes, and there's also an open corridor to the right of the front wall. If I understand you right, you mean measure into the nook? So the room length is longer?

That would be the idea. The Linn advice is to measure into a recess if it covers more than half the length of the associated wall. Clearly, this is a rule of thumb, and it may well be worth trying things both ways (with two saved configurations).

As regards the sub, does it have a phase switch or control, and did you move it from the zero position when you set up the sub? With SO (and certainly with Exakt/SO+), it's generally best to leave any phase adjustment on the sub disabled and let SO do the work.

David

Thanks David. Although the nook itself isn't more than half the width, seeing as there is a corridor as well I will try that. I assume the rest of the placements remain the same in relation to real space (ie. the depth of the nook is added to the distance of the other things from the front wall)?
The sub phase switch is set to 180 degrees as it is loudest in that position (which according to the manual is the right setting). If that conflicts with advice when using SO, I'm unure which way to go...

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
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AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 652(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
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2017-09-13, 13:34
Post: #6
RE: Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
Auralizations 2:
I think setting the sub phase to 0 may only apply with the Exaktbox-Sub. It definitely needs to be inverted at 180 for my setup.
I have re-calculated with the nook included into the room length (and all other positions moved down the room so they are still correct in absolute space). Result - 7 filters, include 2 for single speakers (L and R by themselves). Sound - not good at all. A mess really, too bright, no warmth, and tiring to listen to.
So, I have incorporated a custom filter at the mode 1 frequency calculated above into the SO profile for the real room length excluding the nook. Result - not too bad. So I tried all other filters set to 0 and add them in one by one. Custom mode 1 and it's singing. Adding the others have either made it worse, or had no effect.

I think my room just may be too bright for SO to handle, and ideally I probably need a lot of room treatments. Plus it could be personal taste. I like warmth and dislike too much brightness. I'm sure a couple more custom filters in 60-70Hz range could probably make it better yet, but the calculated ones just make it far to bright for my liking.

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [DS214play +Jitterbug, MinimServer], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 652(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
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2017-09-13, 14:31
Post: #7
RE: Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
If you're happy with only treating 1 room mode, than that's fine. That one room mode will be a nasty one and with that removed your setup will sound much better than without.
You can try and sweep the 60 to 70Hz range and see if you can find another one, but its not that you -need- to fix everything.
The worst thing you can do is to remove too much, so I'd suggest to to that sweep with -6dB tops.

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2017-09-13, 15:21
Post: #8
RE: Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
I think you're right Tin. The nook and corridor combined is enough to mean the calculated mode 1 without them was false. The new one is at 34.19Hz rather than 39.36Hz. More than 5Hz difference - no way I'd have been able to tweak that.
I have also just done what you suggest with the --H mode, at the calculated frequency (63Hz), set to -6dB. Singing more. Raised the top end just enough to bring it even more alive.
Interestingly, that frequency was also calculated for mode -H- when including the nook dimension.
So two filters ratehr than 5 (or 7).
Less is definitely More Smile

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [DS214play +Jitterbug, MinimServer], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 652(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
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2017-09-13, 16:37
Post: #9
RE: Observations over the W/E on Sub integration with SO
Well, the 'problem' with SO is that it still is early days.
There aren't that many perfectly rectangular shaped rooms and everything you add in the room will mean the calculations will be somewhat off, sometimes in the amount, sometimes in frequency and if an object resonates symphatically things can become very confusing.
But as you now have 2 modes, changes are that you already fixed over 80% of the issues in your room, every next mode will be smaller, otherwise you'd know.
So maybe less is no more, but less may be good enough. Wink

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