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[split] Spotify & censorship
2017-09-04, 17:39
Post: #1
[split] Spotify & censorship
Apologies in advance to everyone for this but I'm going there anyway.

"That's where a recent Spotify-related story comes in. On Wednesday, the streaming service announced that it had started to remove a significant amount of music, following a Digital Music News piece called "I Just Found 37 White Supremacist Hate Bands on Spotify." Obviously the removal is a good thing, but at the same time, there is kind of an elephant in the room: why has music that could incite racial hatred stayed on the platform until August 2017? And where goes giving such music a platform fit into respecting freedoms of speech and expression?"

I've no issue with removing hate music from my life (it was never a part to start with, nor something I act upon) but this is indeed a slippery slope. Music containing negative lyrics against (in no particular order) ethnicities, women, police, sexual orientation, cultures and sub-cultures, etc... the list goes on. And there goes a rather large portion of "the" music catalog if you think about it, and who is going to make these calls?

I really do appreciate the folks at Linn for their hard work to give us more music options however I personally can't do business with Spotify or a business that is into censorship. I'm not posting this to sway anyones opinion on the matter, you go on and do what you want, in general I just want for us to each make informed decisions.

One of the things I love about this forum is that I can come here and get away from the craziness of the world and here I am bringing the crazy into our sanctuary.

Bottom line is to do what you want but be informed.

I'm 100% ok if this post gets moved or deleted, I'm a bit angry that I even feel compelled to post it but I also feel music censorship is not OK.

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2017-09-20, 19:46
Post: #2
RE: Linn DS now supports Spotify Connect
Fantastic work Linn and thanks so much to all the staff who worked on this.

Another example of the continuing innovation provided to those of us who have invested in Linn products.

Reading Ropedrag's post however, I cannot help but respond. Those who believe we live in a world where censorship is wrong are living in their own utopian delusion. We need it now more than ever. Why? Because, despite our pace of technological development, biologically humans are still frightened, tribal and xenophobic primates, who are gullible and very easily socially conditioned for good or ill. We are also capable of great violence and cruelty under the right circumstances. Extremist material must be removed from the global communications platforms wherever possible, be that Spotify or any other platform.

Who makes the decisions and on what basis? Sure these are great challenges but to just declare them insurmountable and retreat to a 'no-censorship' position is a simplistic and idealistic one in my view, as well as a dereliction of duty to the young and future generations.

Sorry to digress so much from the subject of this thread.
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2017-09-20, 20:59
Post: #3
RE: Linn DS now supports Spotify Connect
(2017-09-20 19:46)JGW911 Wrote:  Fantastic work Linn and thanks so much to all the staff who worked on this.

Another example of the continuing innovation provided to those of us who have invested in Linn products.

Reading Ropedrag's post however, I cannot help but respond. Those who believe we live in a world where censorship is wrong are living in their own utopian delusion. We need it now more than ever. Why? Because, despite our pace of technological development, biologically humans are still frightened, tribal and xenophobic primates, who are gullible and very easily socially conditioned for good or ill. We are also capable of great violence and cruelty under the right circumstances. Extremist material must be removed from the global communications platforms wherever possible, be that Spotify or any other platform.

Who makes the decisions and on what basis? Sure these are great challenges but to just declare them insurmountable and retreat to a 'no-censorship' position is a simplistic and idealistic one in my view, as well as a dereliction of duty to the young and future generations.

Sorry to digress so much from the subject of this thread.

Sorry, but this is something that is fundamental.

What I highlight is exactly the point. At the moment we have the fear-mongers and ignorant, smug, holier-than-thou one-position-only perspective deciding what's best for all. Because, as you say, it's a primitive delusion based on the things you highlight.
It's absolutely about censorship. I don't believe people are stupid enough to believe whatever their told, but similarly I don't believe people are intelligent or critical enough to decide what's true. I have experience of post-truth feeling overriding facts.
For things we only read or hear about, that we have no experience of, we all tend to just accept what we're told as long as they comply with those primitive expectations, without the need for first- or even second-hand knowledge. The tribal response always requires the fear, and de-humanising of, "the other".
So who decides public opinion? The media. Don't kid yourself that you aren't influenced by it. So be very wary of others who say they can decide for you.

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2017-09-21, 11:53
Post: #4
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
(2017-09-20 20:59)timster Wrote:  Sorry, but this is something that is fundamental.

What I highlight is exactly the point. At the moment we have the fear-mongers and ignorant, smug, holier-than-thou one-position-only perspective deciding what's best for all. Because, as you say, it's a primitive delusion based on the things you highlight.
It's absolutely about censorship. I don't believe people are stupid enough to believe whatever their told, but similarly I don't believe people are intelligent or critical enough to decide what's true. I have experience of post-truth feeling overriding facts.
For things we only read or hear about, that we have no experience of, we all tend to just accept what we're told as long as they comply with those primitive expectations, without the need for first- or even second-hand knowledge. The tribal response always requires the fear, and de-humanising of, "the other".
So who decides public opinion? The media. Don't kid yourself that you aren't influenced by it. So be very wary of others who say they can decide for you.

Interesting post, timster, and one with which I find myself mostly in agreement.

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2017-09-21, 17:29
Post: #5
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
I don't think I disagree with Timster either fundamentally. I'm not saying that censorship is good and I wish we didn't need it. But we do at times - it is a necessary evil.

However, I'm not entirely sure who this set of '"fear-mongers and ignorant, smug, holier than though..." etc people "deciding what's best for us all" actually are. Politicians? We vote for them in a democracy which is once again imperfect but difficult to see much better alternatives.

You speak of 'the media' as if it is one giant homogenous conspiratorial entity but it isn't. There are a wid range of media organisations with differing political agendas and they are undoubtedly opionion formers within particular demographics and sub-cultures. Then there is also social media of course, which is even more of an opinion former amongst many.

But back to the main point. In my view, boycott Spotify by all means if you dislike their corporate culture and impact, their environmental record, corporate social responsibility, tax affairs or their impact on the music industry. But because they responded to a media article identifying hate material by removing it? Sounds to me like the only reasonable thing to do in the circumstances. Are they now introducing a wider-ranging censorship policy to remove all music that may be deemed offensive by anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
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2017-09-21, 18:16
Post: #6
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
I prefer not to have censorship either.

There is no objective set of rules one could decide on, so each set of rules would favour a certain group and suppress others.

Besides, I want to be able to listen to Cocaine, I shot the Sheriff, Sweet sixteen and thousands of other songs.

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2017-09-21, 19:26
Post: #7
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
(2017-09-21 18:16)Tin Wrote:  I prefer not to have censorship either.

There is no objective set of rules one could decide on, so each set of rules would favour a certain group and suppress others.

Besides, I want to be able to listen to Cocaine, I shot the Sheriff, Sweet sixteen and thousands of other songs.

Does that just apply to music or to videos and photographic material as well?
If only music, is this some form of communication that is so fundamentally different to others forms that it has some sacrosanct right to freedom of speech under all circumstances?

Does removing the hate songs of white supremacists today lead to the banning of Eric Clapton's greatest hits tomorrow, followed by the formulation of a totalitarian state the day after? Personally I don't believe in absolutes and I don't suffer from paranoia that some group of fear mongers and smug do-gooders are intent on taking my favourite songs away from me and must be stopped at all costs. I don't think that removing hate material is necessarily any kind of slippery slope.
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2017-09-21, 20:13
Post: #8
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
I am no fear monger nor a smug do-gooder and even though this is by no means my area of expertise I am sure that even in the USA there must be enough possibilities to address the issues of neo Nazis or other hate groups without having to resort to censorship.

You can convince me by showing me historic evidence of censorship not being a slippery slope. I love learning from history.

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2017-09-21, 21:16
Post: #9
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
(2017-09-21 20:13)Tin Wrote:  I am no fear monger nor a smug do-gooder and even though this is by no means my area of expertise I am sure that even in the USA there must be enough possibilities to address the issues of neo Nazis or other hate groups without having to resort to censorship.

You can convince me by showing me historic evidence of censorship not being a slippery slope. I love learning from history.

I never said you were, if you re-read my previous post.

Examples of censorship? Sure - movies have been classified and censored for decades with no ill effects. Images of child molestation are routinely tracked down and removed from file sharing sites. More recently terrorist material is now also being tracked and removed from various websites. I don't see any slippery slopes in these cases.
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2017-09-21, 21:53
Post: #10
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
(2017-09-21 21:16)JGW911 Wrote:  
(2017-09-21 20:13)Tin Wrote:  I am no fear monger nor a smug do-gooder and even though this is by no means my area of expertise I am sure that even in the USA there must be enough possibilities to address the issues of neo Nazis or other hate groups without having to resort to censorship.

You can convince me by showing me historic evidence of censorship not being a slippery slope. I love learning from history.

I never said you were, if you re-read my previous post.

Examples of censorship? Sure - movies have been classified and censored for decades with no ill effects. Images of child molestation are routinely tracked down and removed from file sharing sites. More recently terrorist material is now also being tracked and removed from various websites. I don't see any slippery slopes in these cases.
I wasn't saying that you did. I just wanted to make clear where I stand. Smile

The following picture was automaticly being removed by Facebooks child molestation recognition software: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phan_Thi_Kim_Phuc
Its not the only example, but it was certainly a painful one.

And as for censoring movies, there is enough data proving that teen pregnancy is directly linked to that. Teen pregancy is hardly a problem in areas where children feel safe to discuss sex with their peers.

The same goes for terrorism, there is plenty of proof that putting effort in keeping kids in school and discussing the issues openly has a higher success rate than banning the associated material.

To me censorship is a form of denial, and that has never worked. The only way to get rid of issues is by addressing them, not by removing the proof that there is an issue.
If you want to stop those neo Nazis, you got to figure out why they do what they do.
As long as that is not being addressed, they'll continue.

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