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[split] Spotify & censorship
2017-09-22, 00:11
Post: #11
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
Well we might have to agree to disagree then. Sure we can spend days trying to understand why bad people do what they do and turn to antisocial behaviours. Indeed there are many many people whose jobs it is to do just that. I can let my children find videos of beheadings and we can sit down and have a family meeting about why ISIS only do what they do because they are poor young men who feel excluded from society and rejected by western culture etc etc.

But the older I get the more I just want my family to be protected from the grim reality of the behaviour of deviant minorities as long as possible. And I don't support society's indulgence of such people, allowing them to spread their hatred on the basis of some idealistic notion of freedom and free speech.

I think it is possible for a society to take a reasoned, pragmatic and proportionate approach to censorship without curtailing the freedoms of the vast majority in any way. Automated approaches to censorship are bound to get things wrong on the odd occasion but that doesn't mean the principle is wrong, just that the software needs to improve.
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2017-09-22, 09:15
Post: #12
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
Censorship creates ignorance, it doesn't make the problem go away, it only raises people who are not aware of the problems that exist.
And as ignorance happens to be one of the key elements of those problems, so censorship only increases the issues.

I don't want people to spread hate either, but they won't go away if I stick me head in a bucket and pretend that they're not there.
We tried that for a while in the Netherlands, and whether they were neo nazis or jihadist muslims, both their numbers just kept increasing.

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2017-09-22, 11:23
Post: #13
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
I do respect your high principles Tin and I agree that excessive censorship does create ignorance, of the type seen in totalitarian states past and present. The censorship we live with in Europe and the USA is proportionate in my view and doesn't significantly contribute to ignorance. I know that beheading videos and child pornography exist - I don't need to view them.

When it comes to neo nazis and their ilk, well, some people have genuine grievances that can be considered rationally and some groups' views are so irrational and destructive that functional societies that hold equality and mutual respect in high regard will never accede to them - period. Appeasing nazis in the 1930s didn't work and it won't work now.

But anyway, our discussion is academic. We've lived with a low level of censorship for the whole of our lives and it isn't going to change anytime soon. I applaud the efforts of the people with your principles who remain vigilant that it doesn't step too far, but zero censorship won't happen in our lifetimes or those of our children.
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2017-09-22, 12:12
Post: #14
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
I don't want to view beheadings or childporn either, but I'd rather fight the cause instead of the effect.
And as censorship, by its nature, is rather a cause than a effect, I'm fighting it.

And as the level of censorship, my parents had friends who lived on the wrong side of a fence when I was young. I have seen the effects and didn't like them at all.
I haven't been in Prague for 35 years and I am reluctant to go. To much memories, some good, some.. interesting.

I am worried about the UK and USA building walls around them, and I am worried about the USA denying and effectively censoring climate change
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/...hip-emails.
I am also worried that someone explained to Trump that a war president has a good change to be re elected.

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2017-09-23, 12:13
Post: #15
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
(2017-09-04 17:39)ropedrag Wrote:  Apologies in advance to everyone for this but I'm going there anyway.

"That's where a recent Spotify-related story comes in. On Wednesday, the streaming service announced that it had started to remove a significant amount of music, following a Digital Music News piece called "I Just Found 37 White Supremacist Hate Bands on Spotify." Obviously the removal is a good thing, but at the same time, there is kind of an elephant in the room: why has music that could incite racial hatred stayed on the platform until August 2017? And where goes giving such music a platform fit into respecting freedoms of speech and expression?"

First off, compliments for your post. I think it is well put.

Has anyone of you looked at the article on Digital Music News? The reactions on it are really inspiring *NOT*. Most are written by anonymous visitors, and really inflammatory. Does that tell something about the website itself? I wonder.
On the one hand that makes it even worse that Spotify so easily gives in to these stories by removing this music. On the other hand, I have wondered about this from the start and I was surprised to see a lot of dubious bands on Spotify. Yes, I have looked, and there are some real nasty titles there.

I think it is good that they are there, because I think most people are perfectly able to decide for themselves if something is right or not. It also means Spotify isn't judging for me, they take me seriously and see that I can do the judging for myself.

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2017-09-23, 21:57
Post: #16
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
Great, I'm glad that the entire human population is utterly impervious to the influence of anything they read, watch or listen to online. Clearly no-one has ever been radicalised through hate material posted online. Makes one wonder why the hate groups work so hard to produce and distribute such material in the first place. Don't they know they are completely wasting their time?

I'm glad there is so much hate material on Spotify as well. In fact why don't we invite the preachers of hate into our schools to give speeches to our children? Then our kids can show just how impervious to influence they are and how every human is born knowing the difference between right and wrong.

My bad.
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2017-09-23, 22:09 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-23 22:09 by Tin.)
Post: #17
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
(2017-09-23 21:57)JGW911 Wrote:  Great, I'm glad that the entire human population is utterly impervious to the influence of anything they read, watch or listen to online. Clearly no-one has ever been radicalised through hate material posted online. Makes one wonder why the hate groups work so hard to produce and distribute such material in the first place. Don't they know they are completely wasting their time?

I'm glad there is so much hate material on Spotify as well. In fact why don't we invite the preachers of hate into our schools to give speeches to our children? Then our kids can show just how impervious to influence they are and how every human is born knowing the difference between right and wrong.

My bad.
I can't remember anyone writing that in this thread, but you may have missed something.

I do however believe in freedom of speech, and I am a very firm believer in education and communication.
Without those we are in the hands of an orange baboon and a rocketman, inevitable climate change and in this particular thread someone paraphrasing Southparks 'but what about the children'.

Thank you and good night.

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2017-09-24, 07:19
Post: #18
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
Southpark is possibly the last remaining satire and brake on the normalising of the primitive and tribal. And I am glad of it's existence just for that. Thanks for making the point Tin Wink

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2017-09-24, 07:52
Post: #19
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
This is all really annoying, you'd figure someone would try to learn from history.

Banning content won't stop people from making it, let alone changing their misguided opinions and believes. The only effect is that you're creating a bubble around yourself yelling "I can't hear youuuu!".
That really didn't work on the playground and it sure doesn't work in the real world.

You have to got to actively counter it. So prosecute them, hunt them down, teach equalism in school, remove the reasons that allow people to hate eachother, impeach a president who claims neo nazis are OK people, do whatever it takes to solve the problem, but never, ever try to hide the evidence of things going wrong.

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2017-09-24, 10:56
Post: #20
RE: [split] Spotify & censorship
Yes this is indeed really annoying. Annoying that some people read posts highly selectively and hear what they want to hear.

When did I ever say that censorship exists in a vacuum and that we shouldn't be doing all of the things you say above to counter the causes of hate? All I am saying is to stop hate groups using global platforms to spread their hate wherever possible. Will that stop them spreading their material via other means? No, but it will limit the exposure of their hatred and inhibit their ability to condition others. That isn't hiding evidence in any shape or form. It's stopping the spread of propaganda (and let's not get into the debate about whether propaganda is simply a point of view).

You don't trust any group of people to be impartial and reasonable to do this yet you do seem to trust that there are impartial and reasonable people to educate others to make their own decisions about what is right and wrong. Well, Nazis were big on education and communication too and they created a whole generation who were able to make their own decisions on right and wrong. I support education as well but let's not pretend that it's always perfectly unbiased, or that it's a panacea for all the world's ills.

Remove the reasons that allow people to hate each other? Sure let's try but all I can say is good luck with that.
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