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Space Optimisation
2017-09-27, 06:29
Post: #11
RE: Space Optimisation
I couldn't find the specifications for those Bose speakers, but if they are quite tiny as their names suggests they might not even benefit from SO anyway. SO only works up to 100Hz, above that room modes aren't much of an issue anymore.

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2017-09-27, 06:41
Post: #12
RE: Space Optimisation
(2017-09-26 20:29)HansBertil Wrote:  
(2017-09-26 14:28)timster Wrote:  
(2017-09-26 13:29)HansBertil Wrote:  If the speakers are missing you can model them as point sources. Works well. /HB

Umm, not sure point source would apply for generic/unknown speakers. You'd get the room corrections and maybe very approximate speaker optimisations based on assumptions.

Hmm, if the point source does not apply on generic/unknown speakers when should it then be used? Space Optimsation provides room correction based on position of the bass sources and ports in the room. To my knowledge no other speaker oprimisation is involved in SO. I think problem arises if you use a point source model on a speaker with multiple woofers and/or ports placed on the cabinet rear. On the other hand it is recommended to fine-tune the proposed response by ear. If this is properly done the point source model should work on any speaker.
It depends, Philbo once responded that for frontfacing subs the orientation doesn't really matter. SO is an approximation method and 'a point source' is defined relatively to its wavelength. The same goes for Exakt, time of flight and phases btw.
People worry too much about the exact measurements but those would only work in an empty room. There is a reason why Paulssurround is so successful at SO, he uses the generated approximations as a starting point. Which is really the best they can be.

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2017-09-27, 07:51
Post: #13
RE: Space Optimisation
Timster, I agree totally with your last post. Use the proposed optimisation as a starting point and tweak to your satisfaction. But I can't see the reason for not using the point source model for a Bose speaker. Are they that special? /HB
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2017-09-27, 08:18
Post: #14
RE: Space Optimisation
(2017-09-27 07:51)HansBertil Wrote:  Timster, I agree totally with your last post. Use the proposed optimisation as a starting point and tweak to your satisfaction. But I can't see the reason for not using the point source model for a Bose speaker. Are they that special? /HB

I may be wrong (very likely) but my understanding of the level of speaker measurements for SO are:
1. Measured (those listed on the website and with the ruler icon in Konfig): Individually measured drive units
2. Listed in Konfig but not measured (no ruler icon): Point source modelling without individual measuring in 1.
3. Not listed: Unknown/Generic

2. is "point-source" because at least they know the speaker dimensions/relative drive-unit positions and type etc. Maybe I'm missing that "Generic" in 3. is actually point-source modelling (but without knowing anything about the speaker I don't see how).

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

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2017-09-27, 11:24
Post: #15
RE: Space Optimisation
(2017-09-27 08:18)timster Wrote:  
(2017-09-27 07:51)HansBertil Wrote:  Timster, I agree totally with your last post. Use the proposed optimisation as a starting point and tweak to your satisfaction. But I can't see the reason for not using the point source model for a Bose speaker. Are they that special? /HB

I may be wrong (very likely) but my understanding of the level of speaker measurements for SO are:
1. Measured (those listed on the website and with the ruler icon in Konfig): Individually measured drive units
2. Listed in Konfig but not measured (no ruler icon): Point source modelling without individual measuring in 1.
3. Not listed: Unknown/Generic

2. is "point-source" because at least they know the speaker dimensions/relative drive-unit positions and type etc. Maybe I'm missing that "Generic" in 3. is actually point-source modelling (but without knowing anything about the speaker I don't see how).
3. has to assume a point source as well, without dimensions they are point sources by definition.

But as I wrote before, the Boses will probably not go below 100Hz and therefor they are not relevant for SO.

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2017-09-27, 16:53
Post: #16
RE: Space Optimisation
(2017-09-27 11:24)Tin Wrote:  
(2017-09-27 08:18)timster Wrote:  
(2017-09-27 07:51)HansBertil Wrote:  Timster, I agree totally with your last post. Use the proposed optimisation as a starting point and tweak to your satisfaction. But I can't see the reason for not using the point source model for a Bose speaker. Are they that special? /HB

I may be wrong (very likely) but my understanding of the level of speaker measurements for SO are:
1. Measured (those listed on the website and with the ruler icon in Konfig): Individually measured drive units
2. Listed in Konfig but not measured (no ruler icon): Point source modelling without individual measuring in 1.
3. Not listed: Unknown/Generic

2. is "point-source" because at least they know the speaker dimensions/relative drive-unit positions and type etc. Maybe I'm missing that "Generic" in 3. is actually point-source modelling (but without knowing anything about the speaker I don't see how).
3. has to assume a point source as well, without dimensions they are point sources by definition.

But as I wrote before, the Boses will probably not go below 100Hz and therefor they are not relevant for SO.

Thanks Tin - drifting off-topic re. Bose, but I guess the real question then is, what does "point source" actually mean? If "without dimensions they are point sources by definition", what are the listed but not measured ones (my number 2 above)?

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

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2017-09-27, 17:37
Post: #17
RE: Space Optimisation
(2017-09-27 16:53)timster Wrote:  
(2017-09-27 11:24)Tin Wrote:  
(2017-09-27 08:18)timster Wrote:  
(2017-09-27 07:51)HansBertil Wrote:  Timster, I agree totally with your last post. Use the proposed optimisation as a starting point and tweak to your satisfaction. But I can't see the reason for not using the point source model for a Bose speaker. Are they that special? /HB

I may be wrong (very likely) but my understanding of the level of speaker measurements for SO are:
1. Measured (those listed on the website and with the ruler icon in Konfig): Individually measured drive units
2. Listed in Konfig but not measured (no ruler icon): Point source modelling without individual measuring in 1.
3. Not listed: Unknown/Generic

2. is "point-source" because at least they know the speaker dimensions/relative drive-unit positions and type etc. Maybe I'm missing that "Generic" in 3. is actually point-source modelling (but without knowing anything about the speaker I don't see how).
3. has to assume a point source as well, without dimensions they are point sources by definition.

But as I wrote before, the Boses will probably not go below 100Hz and therefor they are not relevant for SO.

Thanks Tin - drifting off-topic re. Bose, but I guess the real question then is, what does "point source" actually mean? If "without dimensions they are point sources by definition", what are the listed but not measured ones (my number 2 above)?
Probably with physical measurements of the boxes, which could mean copying information from the specification on the original websites, but not with measurements of where the drivers are exactly.

I think.

But the importantest thing is that 1 beats 2 beats 3. Wink

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2017-09-27, 18:56
Post: #18
RE: Space Optimisation
I'd say 1 beats 2 equals 3.

1 is measured.
2 is on the list of speakers to measure, but Linn have lost the will to actually measure them, or their manufacturers have refused to supply Linn with measurements (more likely - I can't see Linn buying one of every type of loudspeaker just to get the measurements).
3 is not on the list and (obviously) not measured.

SO measurements do seem to have come to a complete halt, not least with subwoofers. They must have got bored with it I think and have all found something much more interesting to play with. Announcements in November?
Another theory - Linn say that their staff often rotate around the various departments - maybe it's just a case of waiting for whoever is good at/can be bothered to get loudspeaker measurements to return to the SO department. Similarly, the Konfig team seem to be having fun elsewhere at the moment - not heard a peep from them for ages. Maybe it's all tied in and there will be some big announcement soon - no Davaar Betas, no Konfig updates, no Exakt firmware updates, no new Exakt filters - it's been fairly quiet for a while now... loins being girded perhaps?

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