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Increasing M109 bass performance
2017-09-28, 10:23 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 10:26 by Matteo.)
Post: #1
Increasing M109 bass performance
Hi all

I did a lot of researches on the forum but I'm still confused.

How can I improve the bass performance of the M109?

I'm considering the following options (not in specifical order):

1) adding a M126 (to put inevitably in a corner of the living room; in this case, I should need a very long interconnects from A2200 to M126 and an help for settings);
2) selling the A2200 and going aktiv with M6100 (in this case, I need 6 aktiv cards, at least 2 pairs of speakers cables and a dealer intervention);
3) selling M109 and buying a s/h A212;
4) bi-wiring M109 with K40;
5) bi-amping M109 with another A2200;
6) driving M109 in mono with another A2200;
7) selling the A2200 and buying a s/h KCT.

Going aktiv with another A4200 or Solo are out of my budget.

There are some contraindications for bi-amping or going aktiv with different speakers cables?

Other options are also welcome.

Regards

M.

LP12 / Kore / Trampolin 2 / Akito 2b / Radikal / Adikt / T-Kable
Cambridge CXN - Silver
AK/1 - Silver - A2200/1
K200/Knekt / M109
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2017-09-28, 11:06 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 12:05 by charlie1.)
Post: #2
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Hi Matteo,

I won't comment on Exakt or sub options as I don't know enough about them.

A friend with aktiv 212s and 4200s moved to passive KCT and said it much better controlled and more engaging, which ties in with my experiences.

Bi-amping and bi-wiring didn't do much for me. Cleaner sound, less musical, but others on the forum claim better results.

Don't know anyone that ever ran two 2200 in mono. Surely, you're much better off with KCT or saving for aktiv cards and 2nd hand 4200.

I wouldn't bother with aktiv 6100 either, having run a 6100 with aktiv Ninkas and temporarily run them passive with an Akurate amp. You should aim for something that is better all round where as I fear this might be better in some ways and worse in others.

Lastly, 212s are arguably harder to drive than 242s which really need a KCT when passive. 2200 doesn't quite deliver imo.

Upgrading your AK1 to KK1 will also help bass control and add more of a kick to the bass. KKs are so cheap now!

Good Luck and have fun! Smile
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2017-09-28, 11:39
Post: #3
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Active 109s with 6100s are pretty great.

Subs help too. But I'd go active first.

http://www.last.fm/user/mcgillroy

MDSM/2 - 6100/D - active Kabers - Nubert 441w sub + Qobuz Sublime.
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2017-09-28, 12:09
Post: #4
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Adding a BK Elec sub, a Gemini II, or one of its bigger brothers depending on room size would be my advice. These are easier to integrate and cheaper than Linn ones, or most other brands.

If your budget stretches further, going Aktiv, or Exakt, would be a huge added bonus.

I have 3 subs by now, and if I Would have to buy new I'd prefer 2 or more smaller ones over a single bigger one. The bigger one may play louder but that is hardly ever an issue, until you live in a large ballroom. A bigger one might also go lower than a single smaller one, but 2 enhance eachothers performance, giving a much tighter performance and added depth as well.

I don't disagree with McGillroy, its just the order. But you'll love having both. Smile

There are plenty of threads describing BK Elec, or older REL subs, so search for those.

Tin can telephone system.
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2017-09-28, 12:23
Post: #5
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Thanks for all answers.

Gemini seems interesting.

Sub settings worry me ...

LP12 / Kore / Trampolin 2 / Akito 2b / Radikal / Adikt / T-Kable
Cambridge CXN - Silver
AK/1 - Silver - A2200/1
K200/Knekt / M109
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2017-09-28, 13:28
Post: #6
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-09-28 12:23)Matteo Wrote:  Thanks for all answers.

Gemini seems interesting.

Sub settings worry me ...
It's quite easy actually, you put the crossover frequency and gain somewhere in the middle and lower the crossover until it starts to become musical instead of muddy.
Than you lower the gain until you just can't hear the sub anymore.
After a day or 2 you'll notice that it will sound even beter by lowering the crossover a notch or two again. You might need to increase the gain a bit, but you better use your own judgment with that.

The biggest mistake you can make is by having the crossover frequency too high. That will really kill the musicality.

Tin can telephone system.
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2017-09-28, 14:29
Post: #7
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Two other suggestions for you:
1) Replace the Ak/1 and 2200 with a Lejonklou Boazu
If that's too radical, then
2) Replace the 2200 with a Lejonklou Tundra Stereo

As others have suggested, you might be surprised by how much better the bass will become by improving the amplification.

These options are both much cheaper than going Aktiv or Exakt.

Main: KDS3 / Lejonklou Sagatun Mono Tarandus / Lejonklou Tundra Mono 2 Tarandus / 242s
LG OLED 55E6V /Oppo 205 as processor / Lejonklou Tundra Stereo / Katan rears / Velodyne DD12 sub
2nd system: Oppo105 / Lejonklou Boazu / 109s
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2017-09-28, 14:37
Post: #8
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Or maybe an Ekos 2/Ekos SE?

My system: LP12/Keel/Radikal/Ekos 2/Akiva/Akurate DSM1/Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L/ QNAP 219P II / Kudos /2 x C6100-D/Akubarik (active bass).
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2017-09-28, 14:50 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 14:55 by Briain.)
Post: #9
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Okay, here is another radical idea; replace the AK with an ADSM. This would facilitate adding a small bass shelf (I'll expand on that, below) but even more critically, it would also mean that you could take advantage of the Linn Sound Optimisation feature to counter the room modes (and the difference that makes can be massive). If you are considering adding a sub, remember that it will also excite room modes and thus the ability to counter them vla SO will be even more important. So, it might be a little radical, but there are a good few positives that it could bring to the party (not to mention that you'd also get a fine streaming solution, too).

Anyhow, putting SO aside for now, if you look at the M190 product information sheet at the below link...

http://small.linncdn.com/product-catalogue/documents/Linn_Majik_109_Product_Information.pdf

...you will note that it states the below:

Frequency response (passive): 72 Hz - 20 kHz
Frequency response (aktiv): 65 Hz - 20 kHz

It is quite common (with Linn speakers) that the active ones go a little lower than their passive equivalents, and this was achieved by Linn adding a little low frequency boost in the active crossover (not so easy to achieve in a passive crossover, so that's why only the active ones have such a tweak) to compensate for the speaker's natural roll off.

In the case of my Linn 212s, they claimed the below response:

Frequency response (passive): 70 Hz - 33 kHz
Frequency response (aktiv): 55 Hz - 33 kHz

I asked for guidance on the nature of this boost and whether it could be approximately replicated by adding some bass shelf in Space Optimisation, and it was suggested that I try +2dB at 50Hz in Konfig*.

Whilst I have owned 212s for many years, I recently sold them and bought another set (in maple, to better suit my room) and I've only recently installed them. Armed with the above information, I slapped in a bass shelf and from a very brief listen (only a handful of tunes) it sounds extremely promising. When time permits, I'll listen for longer, then disable it, then experiment to see if I can optimise it (by playing with the level - perhaps trying a little less than 2 dB - and the frequency).

I don't know what you'd ideally enter for 109 speakers, but my hunch would be to start it at about a Konfig setting of 50 Hz, and experiment from there (trying several values between 45 and 55 Hz, or perhaps even a wider selection than that).

Of course, that only extends the bass a small amount (though it is a significant amount) and you can't turn bookshelf speakers into something that will de-fizz your lager (and if you tried, the bass unit would only last a few seconds before burning out) so I should add that own my plan is still to block my 212 ports and add a sub (controlled by a miniDSP 2x4) but that is another story (and when I do it, I'll post all the sordid details in a really long and tedious forum post)! Wink I like full range systems as I love having low bass, and because that is what I am used to (from listening to my main system), to me a good sub is essential for my 212 system (and when I do the kitchen system - ceiling speakers - I will also add a sub in there).

Bri

*Note that when applying a bass shelf in Konfig, the bass shelf isn't defined in the way you might expect (as the corner frequency of a low pass filter) but it is instead entered as a centre frequency (in the same way that you would define an SO room mode dip). That information is not important - you will be doing it by ear - but for some, it might a useful thing to be vaguely aware of.

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-09-28, 15:02 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 15:02 by Matteo.)
Post: #10
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Thank you Brian

I listen a lot to LP12 and via headphones, maybe SO could be a problem.

Moreover, I do not like the digital pre-amp in ADSM, in particular at low-volume.

Regards

M.

LP12 / Kore / Trampolin 2 / Akito 2b / Radikal / Adikt / T-Kable
Cambridge CXN - Silver
AK/1 - Silver - A2200/1
K200/Knekt / M109
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