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Increasing M109 bass performance
2017-09-28, 15:29 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 15:30 by Briain.)
Post: #11
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-09-28 15:02)Matteo Wrote:  Thank you Brian

I listen a lot to LP12 and via headphones, maybe SO could be a problem.

Moreover, I do not like the digital pre-amp in ADSM, in particular at low-volume.

Regards

M.

Yes, that could scupper my cunning plan! Wink

I don't know whether SO is applied to the headphone output, but I assume that it might be. I also totally agree about DVC (I was about to append my post to cover that) and the one handy thing about the ADSM is that there are selectable fixed attenuators (12 dB or 24 dB) and enabling one of these significantly helps DVC sound acceptable. To be honest, the 12 dB should probably be enabled by default as that would likely suit most systems (and the 24 dB is ideal for bedroom systems, which tend to be smaller rooms and with systems played less loud).

I use a KDS/0 in the bedroom and I had to make up a 20 dB attenuator for that; without that, the DVC sounded terrible at 'normal' listening levels, but with it, it does sound almost acceptable.

It will be interesting to see what Katalyst brings to the DVC party as according to Linn, the DVC in a Katalyst device will be effectively lossless at volume level settings of 38 and above (and 38 is very quiet); that might make the fixed attenuators in the ADSM redundant (assuming they eventually release a Katalyst ADSM, that is).

As to SO, with a full range system it makes such a difference that I would be tempted to use an ADSM just to apply it (even if I didn't want to stream music) and that is actually how I use my own ADSM (it is doing SO to my AV sources, but I use a KDS for streaming music). In my case, the is set to fixed output and I then use a KK preamp to provide the volume control function (so I don't actually use its DVC feature or its streaming feature). Smile

As you say though, the headphones could be a problem (assuming there's no sneaky way around that; maybe someone can chip in and let us know whether it is possible, but I doubt that it is).

Bri

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-09-28, 15:29
Post: #12
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-09-28 14:50)Briain Wrote:  Okay, here is another radical idea; replace the AK with an ADSM. This would facilitate adding a small bass shelf (I'll expand on that, below) but even more critically, it would also mean that you could take advantage of the Linn Sound Optimisation feature to counter the room modes (and the difference that makes can be massive). If you are considering adding a sub, remember that it will also excite room modes and thus the ability to counter them vla SO will be even more important. So, it might be a little radical, but there are a good few positives that it could bring to the party (not to mention that you'd also get a fine streaming solution, too).

Anyhow, putting SO aside for now, if you look at the M190 product information sheet at the below link...

http://small.linncdn.com/product-catalogue/documents/Linn_Majik_109_Product_Information.pdf

...you will note that it states the below:

Frequency response (passive): 72 Hz - 20 kHz
Frequency response (aktiv): 65 Hz - 20 kHz

It is quite common (with Linn speakers) that the active ones go a little lower than their passive equivalents, and this was achieved by Linn adding a little low frequency boost in the active crossover (not so easy to achieve in a passive crossover, so that's why only the active ones have such a tweak) to compensate for the speaker's natural roll off.

In the case of my Linn 212s, they claimed the below response:

Frequency response (passive): 70 Hz - 33 kHz
Frequency response (aktiv): 55 Hz - 33 kHz

I asked for guidance on the nature of this boost and whether it could be approximately replicated by adding some bass shelf in Space Optimisation, and it was suggested that I try +2dB at 50Hz in Konfig*.

Whilst I have owned 212s for many years, I recently sold them and bought another set (in maple, to better suit my room) and I've only recently installed them. Armed with the above information, I slapped in a bass shelf and from a very brief listen (only a handful of tunes) it sounds extremely promising. When time permits, I'll listen for longer, then disable it, then experiment to see if I can optimise it (by playing with the level - perhaps trying a little less than 2 dB - and the frequency).

I don't know what you'd ideally enter for 109 speakers, but my hunch would be to start it at about a Konfig setting of 50 Hz, and experiment from there (trying several values between 45 and 55 Hz, or perhaps even a wider selection than that).

Of course, that only extends the bass a small amount (though it is a significant amount) and you can't turn bookshelf speakers into something that will de-fizz your lager (and if you tried, the bass unit would only last a few seconds before burning out) so I should add that own my plan is still to block my 212 ports and add a sub (controlled by a miniDSP 2x4) but that is another story (and when I do it, I'll post all the sordid details in a really long and tedious forum post)! Wink I like full range systems as I love having low bass, and because that is what I am used to (from listening to my main system), to me a good sub is essential for my 212 system (and when I do the kitchen system - ceiling speakers - I will also add a sub in there).

Bri

*Note that when applying a bass shelf in Konfig, the bass shelf isn't defined in the way you might expect (as the corner frequency of a low pass filter) but it is instead entered as a centre frequency (in the same way that you would define an SO room mode dip). That information is not important - you will be doing it by ear - but for some, it might a useful thing to be vaguely aware of.

Great advice Briain,

I just did Space optimization on 2 people's Linn systems with 109's and a Majik DSi.

One person had a sub, the other had ordered a sub, but it had not arrived by the time I was there.

However, in both cases, I was able to get prodigious bass from both systems.

As you stated, better amps will get better bass, as will switching from 109's to 212's or Akudoriks.

Adding a sub, if done properly will be a transformational and a fundamental improvement.

Exakt Surround 5.0:
Katalyst Akubariks, AEDSM, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrounds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-09-28, 15:49 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 15:52 by Briain.)
Post: #13
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Hi Paul

A famous Linn loudspeaker designer tipped me off about where to start, but that wee bit of bass shelf certainly cheered up the sound from the 212s (though it does need more listening to ensure it hasn't messed anything up). When you think about it, one of the cool things about going active was that it slightly extended most speakers, so as long as the SO shelf can be set to approximate what they did in each active filter, then there's no reason why it shouldn't work. Of course, it could be that in some filters, the slope is such that it cannot be mimicked in SO and thus it might not be possible to emulate it (as well as was done on the active boards) but I have no knowledge of the active card bass tricks so I can't say one way or the other (other than my initial 212 test sounds extremely promising).

Of course, you can get great sounding bass from speakers like the 212 and to many folks, once they had been optimised (in terms of position) that would sound fantastic. The trouble with me is that I am used to 350s and my miniDSP controlled sub (which I use nightly for TV sound) so that is the sound balance that I expect to hear, and thus when I play something on my 212 system, there's an octave of fun that it just isn't outputting (another reason I am not so keen on ported speakers; the bass drops off very quickly) so to me, a sub is simply essential.

I am also a big fan of using a sub and having blocked ports on the main speakers. A few years ago, Phil Budd created a fabulous post explaining all that (and why it works so well) and when I tried it, I was absolutely astonished at the difference it made to sub integration, but despite a search, I can't yet find it. In fact, from memory he modelled it on a sub and 109 speakers, so it would be extremely useful information for Matteo to read about (if he is pondering a sub). To me, a link to that post (which was in the middle of a long thread, from memory) should be created in a new 'sticky post' so that folks can more swiftly access it, as the information that it contains is far too acoustically vital to just be lost in the mists of time.

Bri

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-09-28, 16:08 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 16:16 by Briain.)
Post: #14
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Hi Matteo

I found the thread about sub integration (and Phil Budd's clever trick involving reversing the speakers phase - with respect to the sub - then blocking off the speakers' reflex ports) and it is well worth reading from post 14 onwards (and post 16 actually shows the graphs that illustrate the results when modelled with 109 speakers and a sub).

I tried it with 212's and the results were beyond awesome (to put it mildly). One of my friends also has 212s and a sub; he had spent a vast quantity of time trying to make it work (playing with roll-off settings and sub positions) but he got pretty much nowhere. When I pointed him to that thread, he rolled up some dusters to try it and he was totally delighted with the results.

Bri Smile

Incidentally, when I sent him the correct Linn foam bungs, they only cost about 66p, so they are probably the most affordable item on the Linn price list! Of course, Linn likely realised the error of their ways and increased the price from 66p to £1500 (kidding; I think they will likely still be well under £1)! Tongue

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-09-28, 16:18
Post: #15
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-09-28 15:49)Briain Wrote:  Hi Paul

A famous Linn loudspeaker designer tipped me off about where to start, but that wee bit of bass shelf certainly cheered up the sound from the 212s (though it does need more listening to ensure it hasn't messed anything up). When you think about it, one of the cool things about going active was that it slightly extended most speakers, so as long as the SO shelf can be set to approximate what they did in each active filter, then there's no reason why it shouldn't work. Of course, it could be that in some filters, the slope is such that it cannot be mimicked in SO and thus it might not be possible to emulate it (as well as was done on the active boards) but I have no knowledge of the active card bass tricks so I can't say one way or the other (other than my initial 212 test sounds extremely promising).

Of course, you can get great sounding bass from speakers like the 212 and to many folks, once they had been optimised (in terms of position) that would sound fantastic. The trouble with me is that I am used to 350s and my miniDSP controlled sub (which I use nightly for TV sound) so that is the sound balance that I expect to hear, and thus when I play something on my 212 system, there's an octave of fun that it just isn't outputting (another reason I am not so keen on ported speakers; the bass drops off very quickly) so to me, a sub is simply essential.

I am also a big fan of using a sub and having blocked ports on the main speakers. A few years ago, Phil Budd created a fabulous post explaining all that (and why it works so well) and when I tried it, I was absolutely astonished at the difference it made to sub integration, but despite a search, I can't yet find it. In fact, from memory he modelled it on a sub and 109 speakers, so it would be extremely useful information for Matteo to read about (if he is pondering a sub). To me, a link to that post (which was in the middle of a long thread, from memory) should be created in a new 'sticky post' so that folks can more swiftly access it, as the information that it contains is far too acoustically vital to just be lost in the mists of time.

Bri


Hi Bri,

I will have to search for Philbo's post, as it sounds like it could be valuable.

I gave up actually listening to the music a while back, when I discovered that I could set up my stereo to make cool thumping bass sounds, and eliminate that annoying music thing.

This way I only need a few music tracks in my music library. This make sorting my music much more simple, and I don't need a big NAS anymore.

In fact, I can put my whole library of thumping bass sounds on a USB stick and stream it through my computer.

I am considering even selling my speakers and just buying 4 subwoofers, to put in each corner of my listening room.

I do wonder if that thumping bass sound is what it would sound like being a molecule of blood being pumped through your heart? Tongue

Exakt Surround 5.0:
Katalyst Akubariks, AEDSM, Akurate Exaktbox 6/4200 for 225 Centre, Majik Exaktbox I for 212 Surrounds, OPPO 105 on StillPoints.
Power: Environmental Potentials 2460, Shunyata Triton, Zitron Cobras, Alpha Digitals
Room Acoustics: SPACE, SubDude HT's, Acoustic Panels
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2017-09-28, 16:20
Post: #16
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-09-28 12:23)Matteo Wrote:  Thanks for all answers.

Gemini seems interesting.

Sub settings worry me ...

No need to worry. I run my Kabers with a Sub too. Much better and integrating it properly is not that hard - also there is always the forum to ask and get a million answers Big Grin

http://www.last.fm/user/mcgillroy

MDSM/2 - 6100/D - active Kabers - Nubert 441w sub + Qobuz Sublime.
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2017-09-28, 16:30
Post: #17
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Some of the answers might even make sense. Big Grin
Well, if we have a good day that is and Nursey allows us some interwebz access of course.

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2017-09-28, 17:10 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 17:15 by Matteo.)
Post: #18
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
more confused

Sad

It seems that the best way (for budget) is to try with a cheap sub (Gemini II is under £ 300) and then going aktiv.

M.

LP12 / Kore / Trampolin 2 / Akito 2b / Radikal / Adikt / T-Kable
Cambridge CXN - Silver
AK/1 - Silver - A2200/1
K200/Knekt / M109
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2017-09-28, 17:20 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 17:23 by DavidHB.)
Post: #19
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Just after I went out (all of two hurs ago), there was this exchange:

(2017-09-28 15:29)Briain Wrote:  
(2017-09-28 15:02)Matteo Wrote:  I listen a lot to LP12 and via headphones, maybe SO could be a problem.
Moreover, I do not like the digital pre-amp in ADSM, in particular at low-volume.
I don't know whether SO is applied to the headphone output, but I assume that it might be. I also totally agree about DVC (I was about to append my post to cover that) and the one handy thing about the ADSM is that there are selectable fixed attenuators (12 dB or 24 dB) and enabling one of these significantly helps DVC sound acceptable. To be honest, the 12 dB should probably be enabled by default as that would likely suit most systems

In the fun and games that followed, I don't think that the factual points were answered, and they probably should be.

Space Optimisation is not applied to the headphone output on the ADSM, which has its own, quite respectable Class A amplifier.

The fixed analogue attenuation on the ADSM is set by default to -12dB. This means, in most systems, that you can set the volume control to 55 or even 60 for normal listening (depending on room size), and that should be well above the level at which the digital volume control (or, to be more correct, the whole sequence of digital processes) has issues with quantisation.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-09-28, 17:23 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-28 17:24 by Briain.)
Post: #20
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
A reasonable sub (sorry, I cannot recommend which one to buy) but if you do get a sub, it is also well worth experimenting with that 'bungs in the ports' (and speaker connections reversed) trick, too! Doing that is what made it work so astonishingly well in my own (and others) systems, so it is well worth spending a few moments to give that a shot (and if confused, we are all here to assist).

Bri Smile

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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