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Increasing M109 bass performance
2017-10-06, 12:32 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-06 12:33 by sunbeamgls.)
Post: #71
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Here are the settings used to tackle excessive harshness and brightness on the Kudos Super 20a (which only had 50 hours on them, I suspect that smaller adjustments would be required when they'd had some more use). You can see in the main graph that it effectively creates a treble shelf from around 2kHz up.

[Image: 36819620444_4f488cc33c_c.jpg]


[Image: 36819620334_1c9b2e66af.jpg]


[Image: 36819620554_9fc761decd.jpg]

Main: AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AExaktbox10; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
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2017-10-06, 14:25 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-06 14:56 by jethanger.)
Post: #72
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
Thanks Paul and Sunbeamgls,
I'm going to be busy this weekend Smile

Cymbiosis Black Ash LP12, Cirkus, Hercules, Tramp2, Linn Ittok VII, DV20X(L), Renew ADSM, 2xMajik 4100D, Aktiv Misos, Black ICs, K40 speaker cable
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2017-10-06, 15:08
Post: #73
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-10-06 12:32)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Here are the settings used to tackle excessive harshness and brightness on the Kudos Super 20a (which only had 50 hours on them, I suspect that smaller adjustments would be required when they'd had some more use). You can see in the main graph that it effectively creates a treble shelf from around 2kHz up.

[Image: 36819620444_4f488cc33c_c.jpg]


[Image: 36819620334_1c9b2e66af.jpg]


[Image: 36819620554_9fc761decd.jpg]

Hi Sunbeam,

Looking at your room modes, I notice you have created a custom filter 2 at 74.6 Hz.

Create a new profile, called More Clarity and Less Harshness?” And eliminate both of your last calculated room modes at what appears to be in the 70 Hz range, by setting them both to 0.0 Gain.

The custom room mode 2 will replace the 2 calculated room modes, which may not be needed anymore?

You can now also look into removing your custom room mode at 8000 Hz, once you have done the above steps, if you get good results from eliminating the last 2 calculated room modes.


(2017-10-06 14:25)jethanger Wrote:  Thanks Paul,
I'm going to be busy this weekend Smile

Have fun!!

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2017-10-06, 15:12 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-06 15:15 by sunbeamgls.)
Post: #74
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-10-06 15:08)Paulssurround Wrote:  Hi Sunbeam,

Looking at your room modes, I notice you have created a custom filter 2 at 74.6 Hz.

Create a new profile, called More Clarity and Less Harshness?” And eliminate both of your last calculated room modes at what appears to be in the 70 Hz range, by setting them both to 0.0 Gain.

The custom room mode 2 will replace the 2 calculated room modes, which may not be needed anymore?

You can now also look into removing your custom room mode at 8000 Hz, once you have done the above steps, if you get good results from eliminating the last 2 calculated room modes.

Thanks Paul, appreciate the input.

However, the above is a plot from the Kudos Super 20a that were in the house for about 6 hours on dem. So no chance to work on them again. But, FYI, as they were, they were unlistenable without the shelf we built. But they may be much better after a long run-in. They're just bright.

(2017-10-06 14:25)jethanger Wrote:  Thanks Paul and Sunbeamgls,
I'm going to be busy this weekend Smile

Lots to play with, just remember to save stuff often with sensible names attached so you can rollback to them if you wish. Nothing to lose, lots to gain!

Main: AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AExaktbox10; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
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2017-10-06, 15:56 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-06 15:57 by Music at Home.)
Post: #75
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-10-06 12:32)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Here are the settings used to tackle excessive harshness and brightness on the Kudos Super 20a (which only had 50 hours on them, I suspect that smaller adjustments would be required when they'd had some more use). You can see in the main graph that it effectively creates a treble shelf from around 2kHz up.

Kudos Super 20's definitely still on my "must listen to and consider" list. Did you try turning the tweeter channels down a notch or two on the 4200's rather than a treble shelf in SO? I'm just thinking a) from a perspective of minimum digital manipulation that a gain adjustment in the analog domain *might* be better (as the analog gain adjust circuit is always in the signal path anyway), and b) the brightness *might" be caused by the tweeters in S20's being set a bit hot for some tastes and by making a gain adjustment specifically in the tweeters signal path you'd be targeting the tweeter directly, rather than an approximation in SO.

ADSM/1 -> 4200/1 x 2 -> Aktiv 109's
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2017-10-06, 17:14 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-06 17:17 by sunbeamgls.)
Post: #76
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-10-06 15:56)Music at Home Wrote:  
(2017-10-06 12:32)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Here are the settings used to tackle excessive harshness and brightness on the Kudos Super 20a (which only had 50 hours on them, I suspect that smaller adjustments would be required when they'd had some more use). You can see in the main graph that it effectively creates a treble shelf from around 2kHz up.

Kudos Super 20's definitely still on my "must listen to and consider" list. Did you try turning the tweeter channels down a notch or two on the 4200's rather than a treble shelf in SO? I'm just thinking a) from a perspective of minimum digital manipulation that a gain adjustment in the analog domain *might* be better (as the analog gain adjust circuit is always in the signal path anyway), and b) the brightness *might" be caused by the tweeters in S20's being set a bit hot for some tastes and by making a gain adjustment specifically in the tweeters signal path you'd be targeting the tweeter directly, rather than an approximation in SO.

No, we didn't try that, but it is an excellent idea. I don't know the crossover frequency for the Super 20a (Kudos do not publish this in their specs), but the frequency range that we applied the shelf to does look very much like the whole of the tweeter's likely range. Of course, that's applying a (more or less) step change at the crossover point whereas the custom filter we applied brings in a more gradual attenuation, but definitely an option to try.

Not sure that the gain adjustment is in the signal path when set to the default position - is that not just a direct connection rather than a fixed position on a variable resistor?

Interesting to note that the T-606 and T-707 seem to have a somewhat tamer treble, at least when connected to Naim amplification.

Main: AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AExaktbox10; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, AVSeKretan
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2017-10-06, 19:31
Post: #77
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-10-06 17:14)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2017-10-06 15:56)Music at Home Wrote:  
(2017-10-06 12:32)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Here are the settings used to tackle excessive harshness and brightness on the Kudos Super 20a (which only had 50 hours on them, I suspect that smaller adjustments would be required when they'd had some more use). You can see in the main graph that it effectively creates a treble shelf from around 2kHz up.

Kudos Super 20's definitely still on my "must listen to and consider" list. Did you try turning the tweeter channels down a notch or two on the 4200's rather than a treble shelf in SO? I'm just thinking a) from a perspective of minimum digital manipulation that a gain adjustment in the analog domain *might* be better (as the analog gain adjust circuit is always in the signal path anyway), and b) the brightness *might" be caused by the tweeters in S20's being set a bit hot for some tastes and by making a gain adjustment specifically in the tweeters signal path you'd be targeting the tweeter directly, rather than an approximation in SO.

No, we didn't try that, but it is an excellent idea. I don't know the crossover frequency for the Super 20a (Kudos do not publish this in their specs), but the frequency range that we applied the shelf to does look very much like the whole of the tweeter's likely range. Of course, that's applying a (more or less) step change at the crossover point whereas the custom filter we applied brings in a more gradual attenuation, but definitely an option to try.

Not sure that the gain adjustment is in the signal path when set to the default position - is that not just a direct connection rather than a fixed position on a variable resistor?

Interesting to note that the T-606 and T-707 seem to have a somewhat tamer treble, at least when connected to Naim amplification.

Do the gain controls work? I thought they only came into play when Aktiv cards were installed... there aren't gain controls on Twins, so that does seem to imply that they're only for Aktiv.

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2017-10-06, 23:24 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-07 00:17 by Music at Home.)
Post: #78
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
(2017-10-06 17:14)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Not sure that the gain adjustment is in the signal path when set to the default position - is that not just a direct connection rather than a fixed position on a variable resistor?

Ah, but then what would be in the signal path if the gain control was set to a positive value? Possibly the only "pass-through' position is the highest value (+4).

(2017-10-06 19:31)phino Wrote:  Do the gain controls work? I thought they only came into play when Aktiv cards were installed... there aren't gain controls on Twins, so that does seem to imply that they're only for Aktiv.

Looking at the board layouts, I think that's a common misconception as the input board appears to be independent of the main board and is located quite a distance from the aktiv cards. Not that that would make it impossible to have some feedback back to the input board to say go into "neutral gain" mode because there is no aktiv card installed, but I'm not sure what the benefit of doing this would be. Next time I have my multi-meter handy and an opportunity to test this, I will, and, possibly, finally put this question to bed! Smile

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2017-10-10, 10:03 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-10 10:04 by Matteo.)
Post: #79
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
coming back on-topic, I'm still tempted to try 2x2200 in mono

m.

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2017-10-10, 12:34
Post: #80
RE: Increasing M109 bass performance
It's your money, but do yourself a favour and compare these images:
https://www.ripcaster.co.uk/node/1595
http://www.avalonconsultants.com/Komri.htm
There is a reason why Komris have better bass than 109s, and it isn't the colour of the veneer.
You can add all the amplification at your 109s that you want, but there is only so much that the woofers of the 109s can do. Size -does- matter.

My Aktiv 212s will have better bass performance than your 109s ever can have, no matter the amplification you throw at them.
Yet I found it neccesary to add 3 sub woofers.

Again, it -is- your money and I'm sure the 2200s will improve the quality of your music, but no matter what, 109s -will- still be small speakers and bass performance -will- be limited.

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