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Space Optimisation - separate channels?
2017-10-02, 19:32 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-02 20:19 by Briain.)
Post: #11
RE: Space Optimisation - separate channels?
(2017-10-02 18:47)Popper Wrote:  Got banned for spamming while trying to figure out how to add a picture! Anyway, here it is, hopefully:

Well, you managed to get the photo posted and also get re-banned in the process! I thought I was pretty nefarious, but even I haven't been banned twice in one day! Big Grin Don't worry though; I'll send the 'forum boss' yet another PM and thus make him aware of your unfortunate predicament (being banned, that is; not the acoustic reflections from your window).

Prior to you posting that, I did Google the speakers and wow, they are big chaps! I also chanced across a wiring diagram showing that they have a switch to bypass the crossovers and thus facilitate activation (or even Exakt) which is a very nice touch. As you can see from my photo further up the thread, I only have teensy-weensy little bookshelf loudspeakers (that's all that Linn makes, these days*) but I do have a secret weapon comprising a miniDSP fed 345 sub in the rear corner (and it works jolly well) so I'm not without my lower octaves.

When I Googled the pictures for your ones, my first thought was that I'd love to hear them, but I must admit that my second thought was that it would be difficult to avoid them being a tad visually overwhelming the room, but now having seen you own photo, you have done an absolutely amazing job of making such massive speakers blend beautifully into that room; a very nice job!!

Anyhowz, PM will shortly be sent to Jim about your banning issue (edit; 'tis now done), so likely it will all be sorted out in the morning (either that or I'll be joining you; see footnote). Wink

All the best
Bri

* For that one, I reckons that I am going to get totally mega-battered, the next time that I'm in the Glasgow area! Tongue

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-10-02, 19:39 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-02 19:41 by DavidHB.)
Post: #12
RE: Space Optimisation - separate channels?
This question didn't get answered:

(2017-10-02 07:00)Popper Wrote:  I was actually wondering about volume offset - does anyone know how it's different from balance?

The Balance setting is just the normal balance control we are all familiar with, but (obviously) digitally implemented.

The Volume Offset on the physical (digital and analogue) inputs is to allow you to match the startup volume of a particular input to the reference level of the device (which is the level associated with Playlist, Radio etc.). So if, for example, your record deck plays at a lower volume than your streamed music, you can increase the level of the Volume Offset on the Phono input to compensate.

I hope that the banning issue is sorted soon.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-10-03, 06:20
Post: #13
RE: Space Optimisation - separate channels?
(2017-10-02 19:39)DavidHB Wrote:  This question didn't get answered:

(2017-10-02 07:00)Popper Wrote:  I was actually wondering about volume offset - does anyone know how it's different from balance?

The Balance setting is just the normal balance control we are all familiar with, but (obviously) digitally implemented.

The Volume Offset on the physical (digital and analogue) inputs is to allow you to match the startup volume of a particular input to the reference level of the device (which is the level associated with Playlist, Radio etc.). So if, for example, your record deck plays at a lower volume than your streamed music, you can increase the level of the Volume Offset on the Phono input to compensate.

I hope that the banning issue is sorted soon.

David

I think we are at cross-purposes here David Wink We were (I think!) talking about the "change speaker volume offsets" in Space Optimisation, not the source volume offset of which you speak.

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2017-10-03, 10:27 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-03 10:27 by Popper.)
Post: #14
RE: Space Optimisation - separate channels?
Many thanks for your kind comments and advice, Briain and everyone.

As it happens, I use external analogue crossovers (Pass Labs XVR-1, JBL 5234 and 5325, each with their own sonic signature), so yes, totally agree that active is the way to go.

Thankfully, each speaker has separate high- and mid-frequency tone controls, with which I briefly experimented yesterday and which seem to help a bit.

Quote:When I Googled the pictures for your ones, my first thought was that I'd love to hear them, but I must admit that my second thought was that it would be difficult to avoid them being a tad visually overwhelming the room, but now having seen you own photo, you have done an absolutely amazing job of making such massive speakers blend beautifully into that room; a very nice job!!
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2017-10-03, 13:32 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-03 13:36 by Briain.)
Post: #15
RE: Space Optimisation - separate channels?
I did have a quick look on the www and someone mentioned that they are 3 way speakers, with one bass unit rolling off at 100 Hz and the other one rolling off at 1 KHz (and of course, there is the HF unit) so one solution (albeit quite an expensive one) could be to go Exakt with an Exaktbox 6 and three stereo power amps. That way, you could use Linn's Exakt Design tool to design your own custom crossovers (and unlike with analogue crossovers, these would be linear phase crossovers). I don't have an Exakt system, but before it was launched, I was invited to experiment with (try to break) the beta version of the design tool and I briefly rattled off 4 very basic projects to vaguely familiarise myself with the controls. As I haven't any Exakt equipment, I haven't looked at it since then (so I don't know how it has evolved) but I do know that forum user 'Sunbeamgls' has used it to design actual crossovers for his own (non-Linn) speakers, so he would have a far more recent (not to mention a far, far more extensive) knowledge of it than I have.

From memory, I asked a similar question to your one (about tweaking one channel to compensate for unusual room circumstances) and at that time, that wasn't in the feature set. That said, even it it still isn't there, I'm sure it might be possible to 'misuse' its existing features to design bespoke parameters for each channel. As I say, that would be quite an expensive option, but if that is of any interest, it would be worth contacting Linn Products and asking what the current version can (and can't) be used to do.

On the subject of digital crossovers, a while back I bought a miniDSP to create the crossover for (and to time align) my rear sub (it needed a 4.37 ms delay to time align it with my main speakers). I never tried it in line with the main speakers (e.g. between preamp and power amp) and thus cannot comment on how good or bad it sounds when dealing full range audio (as opposed to just doing sub frequencies), but it certainly worked amazingly well at sub frequencies (and I have been using it for that, ever since). The one I got was actually a 2 x 8 (so two inputs and 8 outputs) so though I was only using it as a sub controller, in theory, I could have used it as a crossover for 4 way active speakers. It was always my intention to put it in line with my main speakers (just with all the filter parameters in bypassed mode) just to see how much it degraded the sound of a top Linn system (and thus try to assess whether it might sound good enough for use as an active crossover replacement) but as I had no need for a 4 way crossover project, I just never got round to assessing it's sound quality at anything over 100 Hz.

March forward a few years and just last week, I bought the new 2x4 HD version to see what it might bring to the party. I have just got to the stage of measuring it's latency (and adding to that to get the required delay for my sub) and to generating roll on and off filters such that the sub's phase shift best tracks that of the analogue bass crossovers in my main speakers (I still have more work to do in that area). I fitted it into the sub feed last night (for the first time) and thus far, the results sound very promising (I have yet only used it with the system providing TV sound, so hopefully tonight, I'll try it with some actual music and set up the sub level). Some time soon, I'll create a thread all about what I've been up to with this new unit (explaining how to measure its latency, etc)

This new HD range are quite interesting boxes as not only can you design standard crossovers (with phase shifts similar to analogue crossovers) but you can also design linear phase filters. Whilst I only require 'traditional' filters (as I need the phase to shift or it wouldn't work with my existing speakers) I plan to experiment with using the linear phase filters to play with the roll off (so set the traditional IIR filter to get best phase match, and id I want it to roll off earlier, add a FIR (linear phase) filter on top (I haven't even started to look at how to drive the FIR section, but I know it requires the filters calculated in another software package, then the resultant numbers are all uploaded into the miniDSP). It has a higher latency than my old one (new one is 3.11 ms and the old was 1.19 ms) but it's still low enough for my sub (which requires a total of 4.37 ms).

Lots more experiments to do, but I must also get round to setting it to flat (bypass all my filters) and just stick it in-between my DS and my KK (pre-amp) to see how much the A/D and D/A process (and its internal analogue stages) degrade the sound. If it isn't too much, then it could be great fun to create an active system using the miniDSP as a crossover. I do know someone with active Ninka speakers, but if I turn up with a truckload of test equipment and miles of wires (with a view to commandeering their lounge for a day) I suspect his good lady wouldn't even let me through the front door! Wink

From a recent thread on here, I know that forum used Bosco Birdswood has used an original miniDSP as a crossover for his B&W speakers and now uses the HD version with ESL panels (see here: https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=37731) and he thinks that they sound fabulous, so I am quite looking forward to fitting it between my source and preamp to assess that for myself (though at the moment, all my focus is on setting it up with the sub).

Bri Smile

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-10-03, 13:40
Post: #16
RE: Space Optimisation - separate channels?
* For that one, I reckons that I am going to get totally mega-battered, the next time that I'm in the Glasgow area! Tongue
[/quote]

Would that be as in respect of the Mars bar?

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2017-10-03, 14:25 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-03 14:26 by Briain.)
Post: #17
RE: Space Optimisation - separate channels?
(2017-10-03 13:40)jethanger Wrote:  
Briain Wrote:* For that one, I reckons that I am going to get totally mega-battered, the next time that I'm in the Glasgow area! Tongue

Would that be as in respect of the Mars bar?

Not sure about Mars Bars; jocularly insulting Linn's top loudspeaker (by calling it a bookshelf model) would more likely involve an iron bar (and my kneecaps). Tongue

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
Find all posts by this user
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