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Linn Forums / Linn Music Systems & Hi-fi Separates / Turntables & Record Players: Linn Sondek LP12 v / Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.

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Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
2017-10-02, 18:33
Post: #11
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
(2017-10-02 17:23)bettermusic Wrote:  If it lowers fine on the inner tracks it could be that you are dropping it too close to the outer edge where the LP isn't yet flat and the needle is just sliding down the slope till it catches the grooves.

I'm an experienced turntable user, various models since the early seventies, never had this problem before, but my eyesight isn't as sharp as it used to be, so I'll put my glasses on and see if I am mis cueing the run in.

I will check the platform to see if it is bent perhaps causing the arm to slide minutely along it inwards to the record, if so is it possible to gently bend it back, removed from the piston first of course.

I'm also considering whether its due to the fact that the Dynavector design has a very short cantilever, almost no cantilever at all in fact and little damping, therefore low compliance, thus when the stylus lands on the outer run in, energy from the downward travel of the arm is not absorbed causing it to skid as described, a higher compliance cantilever like most other carts would act like a shock absorber absorbing the energy and thus a softer landing?
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2017-10-02, 18:57
Post: #12
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
It could also be that the rubber pad has smoothed with use and the arm is slipping too easily at that point. If you have any green stylus cleaning paper, try roughing it up with a little strip of that.

'troll
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2017-10-02, 21:34
Post: #13
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
I'm also considering whether its due to the fact that the Dynavector design has a very short cantilever, almost no cantilever at all in fact and little damping, therefore low compliance, thus when the stylus lands on the outer run in, energy from the downward travel of the arm is not absorbed causing it to skid as described, a higher compliance cantilever like most other carts would act like a shock absorber absorbing the energy and thus a softer landing?
[/quote]

That sounds plausible too. Let us know what you figure out.

Gary

LP12/Cirkus/Radikal/Kore/Ekos1/Tkable balanced/Uphorik/Krystal/ADSM/1/aktiv Akubariks
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2017-10-03, 08:01 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-03 08:19 by smokestack.)
Post: #14
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
(2017-10-02 17:23)bettermusic Wrote:  If it lowers fine on the inner tracks it could be that you are dropping it too close to the outer edge where the LP isn't yet flat and the needle is just sliding down the slope till it catches the grooves.

It's a combination of this, an overly smooth rubber surface on the lift lower platform as Moomintroll mentioned ...and sometimes an overly slow descent of the lift lower.

The stylus can touch the record but not yet be low enough to drop into the groove when it starts to slide down the lip of the record.
A slow descent of the lift lower , common if cold or a bit sticky with lack of frequent use, exacerbates the issue.

The typically low bias adjustment with the Ekos & early SE is probably also a contributing factor ...and it's always well worth investigating this factor as the improvements in sound quality when you get the bias right are often not subtle ! Wink
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2017-10-03, 13:38
Post: #15
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
I've has the skidding problem with my early-model Ekos SE since day 1, first with an Akiva and then with my Kandid. Increasing anti-skate force from 1.75g to 2+g and using the cueing lever to lower the arm VERY slowly help somewhat.

I don't think uneven record surface is the cause, because I never had the problem with other TTs and arms. I've learned to live with it, but I wish I didn't have to.

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2017-10-03, 19:00
Post: #16
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
(2017-10-03 13:38)Chaucer Wrote:  . I've learned to live with it, but I wish I didn't have to.

Me too, I've already had one Dynavector damaged by what I suspect was down to this issueSad
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2017-10-26, 11:35
Post: #17
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
(2017-10-02 15:47)David Williamson Wrote:  I think the issue will be the anti skate.

We altered the mechanism on the later Ekos SE's to actually increase the anti skate, because we found that the value was not high enough. If you have a Linn cartridge the anti skate is recommended as a starting value to be similar to the tracking weight (1.75g)

I would try it around 2 - 2.1g and see if it sounds better, tune it to sound the best it can using Tunedem, and then go back to see if you still have the problem with the lead in groove.

Regards,

David

Thanks David, I have made some adjustments to the lift lower which have helped.
I wasent aware that the earlier Ekos versions under bias when relying on the dial setting. I use a Dynavector 17D3 with a recommended tracking force of 2g. I have tried experimenting with the bias settings but cant hear much difference, it seems to sound fine anywhere between a bias setting of 2 and the maximum 3.
With regard to the skating issue, one method I have read to test correct setting is to lower the stylus on to a blank section of the run out and set so the stylus moves slowly toward the centre. Even with bias set to maximum the stylus still wants to skate alarmingly towards the centre.
I was wondering if the bias on my arm could be defective, to check with the arm balanced and tracking force set to zero, then applying bias causes the arm to swing outward as expected. So not sure.
Is there a better way of checking if the bias on my arm is functioning properly?
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2017-10-26, 12:54 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-26 12:58 by bettermusic.)
Post: #18
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
(2017-10-26 11:35)dreadatthecontrols Wrote:  
(2017-10-02 15:47)David Williamson Wrote:  I think the issue will be the anti skate.

We altered the mechanism on the later Ekos SE's to actually increase the anti skate, because we found that the value was not high enough. If you have a Linn cartridge the anti skate is recommended as a starting value to be similar to the tracking weight (1.75g)

I would try it around 2 - 2.1g and see if it sounds better, tune it to sound the best it can using Tunedem, and then go back to see if you still have the problem with the lead in groove.

Regards,

David

Thanks David, I have made some adjustments to the lift lower which have helped.
I wasent aware that the earlier Ekos versions under bias when relying on the dial setting. I use a Dynavector 17D3 with a recommended tracking force of 2g. I have tried experimenting with the bias settings but cant hear much difference, it seems to sound fine anywhere between a bias setting of 2 and the maximum 3.
With regard to the skating issue, one method I have read to test correct setting is to lower the stylus on to a blank section of the run out and set so the stylus moves slowly toward the centre. Even with bias set to maximum the stylus still wants to skate alarmingly towards the centre.
I was wondering if the bias on my arm could be defective, to check with the arm balanced and tracking force set to zero, then applying bias causes the arm to swing outward as expected. So not sure.
Is there a better way of checking if the bias on my arm is functioning properly?

If the arm wants to skate "alarmingly" towards the spindle when it is set between 2 and 3 then it does sound like the anti skating isn't high enough. When zero balanced it only takes about 1/2g setting on the anti skating of an Ekos to make the arm swing back towards the arm rest. It sounds like the anti skating isn't near enough even when set at full.

Gary

LP12/Cirkus/Radikal/Kore/Ekos1/Tkable balanced/Uphorik/Krystal/ADSM/1/aktiv Akubariks
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2017-10-26, 13:59
Post: #19
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
(2017-10-26 12:54)bettermusic Wrote:  
(2017-10-26 11:35)dreadatthecontrols Wrote:  
(2017-10-02 15:47)David Williamson Wrote:  I think the issue will be the anti skate.

We altered the mechanism on the later Ekos SE's to actually increase the anti skate, because we found that the value was not high enough. If you have a Linn cartridge the anti skate is recommended as a starting value to be similar to the tracking weight (1.75g)

I would try it around 2 - 2.1g and see if it sounds better, tune it to sound the best it can using Tunedem, and then go back to see if you still have the problem with the lead in groove.

Regards,

David

Thanks David, I have made some adjustments to the lift lower which have helped.
I wasent aware that the earlier Ekos versions under bias when relying on the dial setting. I use a Dynavector 17D3 with a recommended tracking force of 2g. I have tried experimenting with the bias settings but cant hear much difference, it seems to sound fine anywhere between a bias setting of 2 and the maximum 3.
With regard to the skating issue, one method I have read to test correct setting is to lower the stylus on to a blank section of the run out and set so the stylus moves slowly toward the centre. Even with bias set to maximum the stylus still wants to skate alarmingly towards the centre.
I was wondering if the bias on my arm could be defective, to check with the arm balanced and tracking force set to zero, then applying bias causes the arm to swing outward as expected. So not sure.
Is there a better way of checking if the bias on my arm is functioning properly?

If the arm wants to skate "alarmingly" towards the spindle when it is set between 2 and 3 then it does sound like the anti skating isn't high enough. When zero balanced it only takes about 1/2g setting on the anti skating of an Ekos to make the arm swing back towards the arm rest. It sounds like the anti skating isn't near enough even when set at full.

Yes, when zero balanced my Ekos does swing back when only a little anti skate is applied as you describe, so seems OK in that respect.
I'm scratching my head
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2017-10-26, 16:07 (This post was last modified: 2017-10-26 16:08 by smokestack.)
Post: #20
RE: Skidding Ekos Lift/lower device.
I'm a little puzzled that you don't hear much difference with the bias set at 2 and then at 3 .

Such an adjustment would normally be very audible I terms of imaging and consistency of timbre if everything is functioning correctly.

Is your cartridge in good order ?
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