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[4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
2018-02-11, 17:05 (This post was last modified: 2018-02-11 17:06 by Charly.)
Post: #1
[4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
I have reported this issue some time ago ... see

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=37459

Today I got this issue again when i played around with the room setup.

Everything was nice until i changed the left wall from partitioned to unknown. See room mode 8 in the attached files.

I have attached the XML files before and after the change.

Hopefully it is only a display problem within Konfig and has no effect to the filter calculation ?!?!


Attached File(s)
.pdf  Main 608g.pdf (Size: 45.18 KB / Downloads: 21)
.pdf  Main 608g Left unknown.pdf (Size: 43.91 KB / Downloads: 21)

Main Room: Klimax DMS Exakt, Klimax Exaktbox, 6100 amp, Ninka activ Tri-Amp via Exakt, Cable Tuner, Blue Ray Player --- Snooker Room: Klimax DSM Renew, LK140, Linn Nexus --- Synology 713, Synology Media Server
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2018-02-11, 19:15 (This post was last modified: 2018-02-11 19:33 by phino.)
Post: #2
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
(2018-02-11 17:05)Charly Wrote:  I have reported this issue some time ago ... see

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=37459

Today I got this issue again when i played around with the room setup.

Everything was nice until i changed the left wall from partitioned to unknown. See room mode 8 in the attached files.

I have attached the XML files before and after the change.

Hopefully it is only a display problem within Konfig and has no effect to the filter calculation ?!?!

There's definitely something strange going on there. Don't worry too much about the attached PDFs, they're just my way of displaying the data and I did make some assumptions about how it all worked.

However, entering your room dimensions etc into Konfig, I get some odd results for sure - something for Linn to look into I think.

Konfig calculates eleven room modes for your left channel:
Code:
<Outputs version="1">
            <RoomModes>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>30.935251798561154</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>20.340762677432426</Q>
                  <GainDb>-19.970693363788392</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>0</X>
                  <Y>2</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>35.102040816326529</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>23.080538874800876</Q>
                  <GainDb>-31.912609583496728</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>1</X>
                  <Y>0</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>38.358841489689816</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>25.221973184628151</Q>
                  <GainDb>-28.810411247979253</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>1</X>
                  <Y>1</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>46.402877697841724</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>30.511144016148634</Q>
                  <GainDb>-26.061365292402314</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>0</X>
                  <Y>3</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>58.184021243911211</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>38.257563747909479</Q>
                  <GainDb>-25.488026877883492</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>1</X>
                  <Y>3</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>61.870503597122308</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>40.681525354864853</Q>
                  <GainDb>-22.444412632610916</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>0</X>
                  <Y>4</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>69.07630522088354</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>45.419534331937463</Q>
                  <GainDb>-15.842001072113487</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>0</X>
                  <Y>0</Y>
                  <Z>1</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>70.204081632653057</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>46.161077749601752</Q>
                  <GainDb>-22.242648801429148</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>2</X>
                  <Y>0</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>71.887832968064274</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>47.26818967952638</Q>
                  <GainDb>-14.521483319314774</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>2</X>
                  <Y>1</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>77.338129496402885</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>50.851906693581071</Q>
                  <GainDb>-24.811205391701918</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>0</X>
                  <Y>5</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>79.012256412532665</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>51.952690308165437</Q>
                  <GainDb>-19.76239492636072</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>1</X>
                  <Y>1</Y>
                  <Z>1</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
            </RoomModes>
          </Outputs>

...& for your right channel, it calculates only 10 (which in itself is fine).

Code:
<Outputs version="1">
            <RoomModes>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>35.102040816326529</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>23.080538874800876</Q>
                  <GainDb>-34.535188395150747</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>1</X>
                  <Y>0</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>38.358841489689816</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>25.221973184628151</Q>
                  <GainDb>-32.860213274093624</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>1</X>
                  <Y>1</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>46.402877697841724</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>30.511144016148634</Q>
                  <GainDb>-24.437970341337</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>0</X>
                  <Y>3</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>58.184021243911211</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>38.257563747909479</Q>
                  <GainDb>-19.866746332289949</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>1</X>
                  <Y>3</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>61.870503597122308</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>40.681525354864853</Q>
                  <GainDb>-16.074446086086468</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>0</X>
                  <Y>4</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>70.204081632653057</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>46.161077749601752</Q>
                  <GainDb>-26.93860383555598</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>2</X>
                  <Y>0</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>70.204081632653057</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>46.161077749601752</Q>
                  <GainDb>-26.93860383555598</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>2</X>
                  <Y>0</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>71.887832968064274</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>47.26818967952638</Q>
                  <GainDb>-27.682684072609433</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>2</X>
                  <Y>1</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>76.717682979379632</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>50.4439463692563</Q>
                  <GainDb>-18.866438922437577</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>2</X>
                  <Y>2</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>79.012256412532665</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>51.952690308165437</Q>
                  <GainDb>-18.68714389028688</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>1</X>
                  <Y>1</Y>
                  <Z>1</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
            </RoomModes>
          </Outputs>

...but two of those are exactly the same....

Code:
<RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>70.204081632653057</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>46.161077749601752</Q>
                  <GainDb>-26.93860383555598</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>2</X>
                  <Y>0</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>
              <RoomMode>
                <Filter>
                  <FrequencyHz>70.204081632653057</FrequencyHz>
                  <Q>46.161077749601752</Q>
                  <GainDb>-26.93860383555598</GainDb>
                </Filter>
                <Order>
                  <X>2</X>
                  <Y>0</Y>
                  <Z>0</Z>
                </Order>
              </RoomMode>

...which cannot be right. I'm assuming that since these are both in the profile, it is indeed making the right channel cut twice as deep as it should be - and as you can't change the relative difference between left and right in Konfig, there's nothing you can do but switch it off (& maybe add a custom mode for it as the difference actually isn't that great between L & R at 4.7db).

Hopefully one of the Linn chaps will spot this thread (or your original one) and have a look, but it'd be safer to email the helpdesk - and attach your XML file. Or if you use the 'Report to Linn' thing, I think it will send them all your configuration, including your SO profile so they can dig it out of there.

Good luck!

nb. I got the results above with PC Konfig 4.35.92, so it's not a Mac problem.

ADs/2 -> Klimax Exaktbox/1 -> Silvers -> 2xKCT/D -> K200 -> Ninka
Exaktbox Sub - BK Sub
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2018-02-11, 22:40
Post: #3
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
Phino,

thanks for the support and confirmation that it is not a MAC problem ...

Lets see if there is a Linn feedback in the next days ....

Charly

Main Room: Klimax DMS Exakt, Klimax Exaktbox, 6100 amp, Ninka activ Tri-Amp via Exakt, Cable Tuner, Blue Ray Player --- Snooker Room: Klimax DSM Renew, LK140, Linn Nexus --- Synology 713, Synology Media Server
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2018-02-12, 14:47
Post: #4
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
(2018-02-11 19:15)phino Wrote:  Hopefully one of the Linn chaps will spot this thread (or your original one) and have a look, but it'd be safer to email the helpdesk - and attach your XML file. Or if you use the 'Report to Linn' thing, I think it will send them all your configuration, including your SO profile so they can dig it out of there.

Hi folks

One of the Linn chaps has spotted this thread Smile

Thanks for the report.

I had a good shot this morning at trying to reproduce the issues you were reporting, using those dimensions and second guessing some of the parameters, but I'm afraid I didn't manage to get either of the anomalies you describe.

It does sound like it merits further investigation though. Report to Linn from Konfig probably won't help here as I don't think it sends through your saved optimisation file unless there was an error reading it, such as it being corrupted to the point of invalid xml, which I don't believe would be the case here.

You were right with the advice to email the helpdesk though. Can I get you both to go into the open menu item, perform an export all and send the resultant zip file to linn helpdesk marked for my attention please and I'll take a look at those and see what I can find?

Ideally, also, a full set of steps to reproduce from scratch including what construction types were chosen, features etc would be helpful if I can't get it from this, but the exported configs is probably the best starting point.

Best wishes,
Iain Mcleod
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2018-02-12, 17:56
Post: #5
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
Iain,

mail with the requested data send.

Charly

Main Room: Klimax DMS Exakt, Klimax Exaktbox, 6100 amp, Ninka activ Tri-Amp via Exakt, Cable Tuner, Blue Ray Player --- Snooker Room: Klimax DSM Renew, LK140, Linn Nexus --- Synology 713, Synology Media Server
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2018-02-12, 20:15 (This post was last modified: 2018-02-12 20:34 by phino.)
Post: #6
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
(2018-02-12 14:47)iainm Wrote:  
(2018-02-11 19:15)phino Wrote:  Hopefully one of the Linn chaps will spot this thread (or your original one) and have a look, but it'd be safer to email the helpdesk - and attach your XML file. Or if you use the 'Report to Linn' thing, I think it will send them all your configuration, including your SO profile so they can dig it out of there.

Hi folks

One of the Linn chaps has spotted this thread Smile

Thanks for the report.

I had a good shot this morning at trying to reproduce the issues you were reporting, using those dimensions and second guessing some of the parameters, but I'm afraid I didn't manage to get either of the anomalies you describe.

It does sound like it merits further investigation though. Report to Linn from Konfig probably won't help here as I don't think it sends through your saved optimisation file unless there was an error reading it, such as it being corrupted to the point of invalid xml, which I don't believe would be the case here.

You were right with the advice to email the helpdesk though. Can I get you both to go into the open menu item, perform an export all and send the resultant zip file to linn helpdesk marked for my attention please and I'll take a look at those and see what I can find?

Ideally, also, a full set of steps to reproduce from scratch including what construction types were chosen, features etc would be helpful if I can't get it from this, but the exported configs is probably the best starting point.

Best wishes,
Iain Mcleod

Thanks Iain,

Just to clarify, I don't have the same problem - I just recreated Charly's setup - but I did manage to replicate the problem. I started a fresh profile, entered the room dimensions, listening position & speaker positions. I didn't add any room features (windows, doors etc - a little prison cell for Charly in effect Big Grin ) and left all the construction features as default ( =unknown).

Mode 8 at 70.2hz gave a left and two right channel filters.

I tried again tonight but without the sub and got the same result.

Charly's system and mine are very similar: a single Klimax Exaktbox with Ninkas and an Exaktbox Sub. At least it looks like the sub isn't the cause.
Let me know if you still want me to send in an example xml file...

nb. Wild speculation, but is there any chance that this is caused by the entire system (left speaker included) being on the right hand side of the room?

ADs/2 -> Klimax Exaktbox/1 -> Silvers -> 2xKCT/D -> K200 -> Ninka
Exaktbox Sub - BK Sub
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2018-02-12, 20:55
Post: #7
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
Out of interest, I've created a fresh profile for my system just with the room dimensions, listening position and speaker positions as given by Charly. The calculation immediately showed two right channel filters at 70.2 Hz with an attenuation of nearly -96 dB for the front right in the graph. There seems to be a fundamental flaw in the room mode calculations for the given dimensions, no matter of the setup.

   

AEDSM > KEB/1 x 2 > Linn Silvers > A4200/1 x 2 > K200 > MISOs
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2018-02-13, 09:26
Post: #8
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
(2018-02-12 20:15)phino Wrote:  Just to clarify, I don't have the same problem - I just recreated Charly's setup - but I did manage to replicate the problem. I started a fresh profile, entered the room dimensions, listening position & speaker positions. I didn't add any room features (windows, doors etc - a little prison cell for Charly in effect Big Grin ) and left all the construction features as default ( =unknown).

Bizarre! I tried that...

Will try it again now. And thanks for sending through the files Charly - will take a look when I get them through from helpdesk.

Cheers
Iain
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2018-02-14, 12:17
Post: #9
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
Hi Charly

Quick update - still looking into it but it looks like you might have caught a rare corner case in picking candidate room modes.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers
Iain
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2018-02-14, 12:56 (This post was last modified: 2018-02-14 16:41 by Charly.)
Post: #10
RE: [4.61.196 & MAC Konfig 4.35.92] Filter shown twice
Hi Iain,

thanks for the update --- does Linn sell upgrades for horrible and complex rooms as well ?? :-)

by the way: may be next time when you visit the Hifi magazines in Stuttgart with new gear you are welcome to visit me and my horror room and use it as test case. :-)

Looking forward to next SW update

Charly

Main Room: Klimax DMS Exakt, Klimax Exaktbox, 6100 amp, Ninka activ Tri-Amp via Exakt, Cable Tuner, Blue Ray Player --- Snooker Room: Klimax DSM Renew, LK140, Linn Nexus --- Synology 713, Synology Media Server
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