Cara 3.3.2 beta sound

[MnM]

MusicLover: 'If you test and fail detecting a change you have my fully respect.' The problem is, when you detected a change, you assigned the cause to a NAS, a switch, whatever - however unlikely that was to be the real cause. Perhaps you did hear a genuine change, but it would have been caused by something else in the environment, and that's what you should track down. Listening while standing on one leg probably has more reason to impact upon sound than using an alternative hard drive.

Devil: 'I don't pretend to know how the whole ether space works , but I asked the question in another thread, and nobody answered. How can anyone be 100% sure that the software that leaves the factory, arrives exactly as intended? I know what arrives at this end is compared to what is sent, but it's coming via copper phone lines that have been in use for years longer than the internet. If I pluck the open d string on a bass guitar, then pluck the tenth fret on the e string , the tuner tells me they are both d. But do they sound the same? No.'

Are you joking? Just no. Without meaning to be disrespectful, you fundamentally misunderstand. I imagine no-one answered because they didn't know where to begin.

Milesr3, Nicolav made a point which hit me a little - as much as I'd be tempted to play down any perceived diffs in sound where I see no reason for it, I equally want to hear audible improvements where there are technical improvements - hence the importance of a good test method (I have to find out more about tune dem). No reason to think you'd see it any differently, but I want to address this point, as I am prone to the idea of skipping a listening test if the technical story is convincing (e.g. I'm convinced by the technical story of jitter reduction of Linn DS vs USB Drive + USB DAC, so am not bothering listening to USB gear). In fact I'd say that I am as prone to perceiving audible improvements from technical hearsay, as much as others may perceive differences because of some fancy of their own. But this is besides the point, to a large extent, as good listening tests can dissolve the bias. (How often is a good listening test actually done, however...)

What is essential, when testing, is to appreciate what can and what cannot be an agent of change. Drives, NASs, RAID levels - absolutely not. Software changes which Linn say do not affect sound - if you believe Linn, then no. The problem with ignoring the realm of fact, when testing, is that everything's game: is your leccy produced by coal or nuclear? Do electrified lines (tubes, trains, national grid) run near your gaff? Are you under a flight path? How's your local atmospheric ozone? Your feng shui? (I realise that none of these are short-term temporal variables but they're just illustrative). I will bet that most people reading this would discount certainly some of the later factors - well then, they're being rational. The more technically minded should be more comfortable discounting more factors, as they're more aware of the variables which can affect the kind of kit we're playing with.

So using bare theory (read: our varied knowledge levels) or pure observation (read: tune dem / other listening tests) to exclusion is wrong, and in case that looks too much like fence-sitting, I will say that I find those who make discoveries using tune-dem and then discount science much more frustrating than the other way around. Don't know why that should be, probably just because it seems to happen more often. You unquestionably need both.

MusicLover, I will gladly accept your observation that you tested and found musical differences in a test which involved switching NASs, if you will accept that the NASs themselves can have had nothing to do with it, so something else must be at play.

[Music Lover]

Thanks Richard for your reply!

milesr3 Wrote:I've had a variety of different Ethernet switches, hubs and patch cables in my system over the last few months and have never noticed any difference in sound. I wouldn't expect to either because of how TCP/IP works. If you have found improvements then that's brilliant, but I have my doubts about it.

yes, it's likely not the data itself due to the TCP/IP protocol, but we know that the power network quality is important so it could be that some NAS pollute the mains more than others... (Looking forward installing a dynamik in my Readynas if I can get my hands on one )
And as the data sent over the cable is an analogue signal representing the "1s" and "0s" you can have dirt entering the DS.
Just a few possibilities

milesr3 Wrote:I guess I'm trying to distinguish between changes that have a basis in scientific fact rather than theory. I'm sure this is how Linn have made improvements to many of their products in the past and will continue to do so in the future as it's probably hard to justify the return on investment on theory alone.

fyi, we discussed general DS development with the R/D team during the customer event some weeks ago and the DO try all sorts of things! However, some items are more important than others to dig in to.

Interestingly it was not the best solution from a technology point of view that was most musical.
I'm very impressed with their overall approach, dedication and attention to detail.
Scientists try all sorts of things. Both the likely ones and the unlikely ones.
Big discoveries normally seem unlikely before they actually occur. Who could imagine the quality it was possible to obtain from a digital file before Linn made it possible with a DS?? Quite an achievement! That is impossible without thinking outside the box. I guess the result speaks for itself…
30 years and LP12 is better and better. The DS concept has just started to mature so a LOT more performance is yet to come.

milesr3 Wrote:The Tune Dem method is intended to allow people to make "consistent and quick judgements", but does not endow the user with superhuman abilities to reliably unearth microscopic changes. Sometimes I listen to my system and I'm "transported by its communicative power". Sometimes I'm not. I've not changed anything in between.

Tune dem isn't about absolute performance, its relative performance so you use tune dem to compare.

the best,
/Jan

[Music Lover]

MnM Wrote:MusicLover: 'If you test and fail detecting a change you have my fully respect.' The problem is, when you detected a change, you assigned the cause to a NAS, a switch, whatever - however unlikely that was to be the real cause. Perhaps you did hear a genuine change, but it would have been caused by something else in the environment, and that's what you should track down.

Good observation and I agree.
That is the reason I test and test and test. In different locations and using different/same equipment.
The difference is sometimes smaller, why?
As you write, we must look for all sorts of reasons.

[milesr3]

MnM Wrote:Listening while standing on one leg probably has more reason to impact upon sound than using an alternative hard drive.

Left leg or right?

MnM Wrote:...as much as I'd be tempted to play down any perceived diffs in sound where I see no reason for it, I equally want to hear audible improvements where there are technical improvements - hence the importance of a good test method (I have to find out more about tune dem).

Absolutely agree. I'm the first to admit that I don't have a good test method, but I listen to music for enjoyment rather than as a pursuit. My 'test method' did notice the rather obvious changes from Bute to Cara, but nothing since that I believe is down to anything more than a different perception of the same thing. Agree that this could be due to my expectation that there is no change as well, but I tend to think that the magnitude of the changes being identified here are smaller than the error bars on the test method.

The hard-drive comparison thing reminds me of a funny story my brother-in-law tells from when he used to work for the BBC; when they built the current digital play out radio stations. Someone in the team was convinced that one brand of hard-drive sounded better than another, so they wrote some test code to randomly pick the same track from both brands. During the test no-one could tell the difference.