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Weird Qobuz dropouts
2018-07-06, 18:16
Post: #31
RE: Weird Qobuz dropouts
(2018-07-06 18:08)Scooter Wrote:  I can understand your frustrations and I'm sorry that things haven't worked out for you. I have never had a problem but only praise for Qobuz support but maybe the problem needs passing to a technical team. The only comparison I can make is to a safety talk we used to give on a regular basis. To prevent something happening you put barriers in the way to prevent things getting through. But sometimes the barriers will have holes in them and sometimes those holes will not be in a line and stop the accident, sometimes they are in line and you get the hit. I'm guessing you're both based in Germany so maybe there is something different to your systems. I have streamed (albeit to my iPad in lots of places from the USA to New Zealand) and the only problem I've encountered is poor internet speeds in some hotels. I do think if Qobuz want to supply customers then they should have good look at sorting the problem out. It would be interesting to see if you get the same dropouts if you use Tidal. I admire your tenacity at trying to get to the bottom of the problem but I think companies will see the problem as else where and not their responsibility or as it's more commonly known "pass the buck". Good luck.

No, I’m in England, not Germany.

Akurate DSM, Akurate 4200 active, Ninkas (Main System), Sneaky DS, Wharfedale Diamonds (Secondary System), QNAP TS-219PII (MinimServer, Asset), iMac, MacBook Pro, iPad Air, iPhone 6+, Kinsky/Kazoo/Lumin
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2018-07-06, 18:59
Post: #32
RE: Weird Qobuz dropouts
(2018-07-06 18:16)Wammer Wrote:  
(2018-07-06 18:08)Scooter Wrote:  I can understand your frustrations and I'm sorry that things haven't worked out for you. I have never had a problem but only praise for Qobuz support but maybe the problem needs passing to a technical team. The only comparison I can make is to a safety talk we used to give on a regular basis. To prevent something happening you put barriers in the way to prevent things getting through. But sometimes the barriers will have holes in them and sometimes those holes will not be in a line and stop the accident, sometimes they are in line and you get the hit. I'm guessing you're both based in Germany so maybe there is something different to your systems. I have streamed (albeit to my iPad in lots of places from the USA to New Zealand) and the only problem I've encountered is poor internet speeds in some hotels. I do think if Qobuz want to supply customers then they should have good look at sorting the problem out. It would be interesting to see if you get the same dropouts if you use Tidal. I admire your tenacity at trying to get to the bottom of the problem but I think companies will see the problem as else where and not their responsibility or as it's more commonly known "pass the buck". Good luck.

No, I’m in England, not Germany.
So am I and never had an issue. Did with Tidal but since I've been with Qobuz no problems at all.

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2018-07-11, 23:20 (This post was last modified: 2018-07-11 23:35 by BB1.)
Post: #33
RE: Weird Qobuz dropouts
Qobuz has responded on Monday this week and I’m very pleased that they are further investigating this issue. AWS’s point of view is, that the dropouts are caused on the client’s side, i.e. located somewhere on the long path between their servers and my DS. I’m not so sure about that…

A few thoughts of mine regarding the DNS server in use:
Changing the DNS might hide the problem, but it isn’t the cure. It’s also simply wrong to advertise Google’s DNS servers as the general solution. In my case it’s simply not true that Google’s DNS servers route my requests to the nearest AWS server. Earlier today they decided to route my requests either to Palermo or London:
   
   

Nevertheless I’ve only seen two dropouts at 7:35 and 9:44 pm. Later on Google’s DNS servers routed me to an AWS server located in Frankfurt, which IP address starts with „13“, as you’ve might have guessed…:
   
The result were dropouts at 10:10, 10:20 and 10:30 pm.

In contrast, the DNS servers of my ISP are now just working fine, because they do not point to AWS servers in Frankfurt with an IP address starting with „13“. At the time Linn suggested me to use Google’s DNS servers, it did work for me, because they did most often not route my request to the problematic AWS servers, whereas the DNS servers of my ISP seems to prefer the problematic ones. Right now the roles have changed. After Qobuz has raised this issue with AWS, the DNS servers of my ISP has proven to be much more reliable than Google’s ones, as they don’t route my requests to the problematic AWS servers anymore.

(2018-07-06 18:08)Scooter Wrote:  It would be interesting to see if you get the same dropouts if you use Tidal.

Actually a rather long time ago I’ve had a Tidal subscription and used a trial Qobuz subscription in parallel. At this time I’ve seen too much dropouts when streaming from Tidal, whereas Qobuz was just working fine. Hence I decided for Qobuz without bothering to get to the root cause of the Tidal dropouts. I wouldn't be much surprised if Tidal is hosted by AWS as well.

AEDSM > KEB/1 x 2 > Linn Silvers > A4200/1 x 2 > K200 > MISOs
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2018-07-12, 07:53
Post: #34
RE: Weird Qobuz dropouts
I tried Tidal before and encountered drop outs but nothing like a few on here but using Qobuz I’ve never had an issue. It seems odd that many stream from Qobuz with no issue so maybe it is something between your ISP and Qobuz /you. I really hope you get sorted and at least Qobuz are looking into it. Good luck.

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2018-07-12, 20:59
Post: #35
RE: Weird Qobuz dropouts
As you I’ve used Qobuz for quite a long time with no issues (Sublime since September 2016, upgraded to Sublime+ in May 2017).

Furthermore a lot of the dropouts I’ve seen since April 2018 where rather short (let’s just say 1 to 3 seconds) and occurred whilst streaming 192/24. If i’d streamed 44.1/16 during this times, I wouldn’t have noticed any glitches. When streaming 192/24, the input buffer of the DS holds about 5 seconds of audio. Hence a dropout of 3 seconds indicates that the DS didn’t get data for about 8 seconds. As the input buffer holds about 25 seconds of audio when streaming 44.1/16, I wouldn’t have seen a dropout in these situations. I’d suggested to Linn that it may be of benefit to increase the input buffer size for upcoming hardware revisions of their DSs.

Right now I’d call the issue I’m seeing as momentarily sorted. Since a few days streaming from Qobuz using the DNS servers of my ISP works rock solid. What I’m and most likely Qobuz as well are afraid of is, that this is just a momentary solution. After I’d changed the DNS servers in use from my ISP to Google’s as suggested by Linn in May 2018, the issue had seemed to be resolved. Later on it turned out, that the DNS servers of my ISP work much better for me for whatever reason.

According to my observations, the only constant condition for the "weird dropouts" to occur is a DNS server (it actually doesn’t matter which) routing my requests to an AWS server in Frankfurt which IP address starts with 13. At first sight, this smells like a server problem on AWS’s side, but I’m neither absolutely sure about this nor I can prove it. If you take a closer look at the last miserably failing trace route I’ve attached yesterday, you’ll see that there is direct link between my ISP and AWS (ISP 2-4, AWS 5-11). In contrast, all of the working routes include a man in the middle (Telia).

Today I’ve streamed 192/24 from Qobuz for more than four hours using the DNS servers of my ISP without any dropout. And as expected, they didn’t route my requests at any time to AWS servers in Frankfurt with an IP address starting with 13. Let's see what happens tomorrow. It's Friday the 13th. Wink

   

AEDSM > KEB/1 x 2 > Linn Silvers > A4200/1 x 2 > K200 > MISOs
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2018-07-17, 23:47
Post: #36
RE: Weird Qobuz dropouts
Although not having gotten any further news on the outcome of the the ticket Qobuz has raised with AWS, I’ve seen rather interesting changes yesterday. I’ve streamed 192/24 from Qobuz for about a total of four hours without any dropout, whereby I was using the DNS severs of my ISP provider for the first two hours and later on Google’s ones for the last two hours.

The typical trace route whilst using the DNS servers of my ISP looked like this:
   
As you can see, there is no „man in the middle“ and my requests are directly routed from my ISP to AWS. Actually it’s been the first time any route provided by my ISP didn’t include any man in the middle.

Not surprisingly at all, the typical trace route differed when using Google’s DNS servers:
   
There is the often observed man in the middle (Telia) and my requests are routed to an AWS server located in Stockholm. Nevertheless the streaming worked flawlessly, although the trace route itself looks much worse.

Right now I can’t tell if the reported issue was caused by my iSP or AWS, but I’m definitely sure that my network isn’t the culprit. Furthermode I’d conclude again that changing the DNS server in use is just a workaround, which may work or not. The real cause lies elsewhere.

If I’d be a user without any technical background, I’d be satisfied with the fact that the reported issue doesn’t persist anymore. But given my background, I’d just like to know the real cause of this issue, as it would satisfy my curiosity and help me to give profound advice to people facing the same issue.

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