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RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - Tin - 2017-11-02 10:08

(2017-11-02 09:27)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2017-11-02 07:52)Tin Wrote:  I am contemplating building a Raspberry Pi based NAS which only has a wired connection to the DS and a WiFi connection to the rest of the network.
The Pi will get a Friwo powersupply as well.
And as a Pi doesn't have any moving parts and won't need any cables for storage (an SD card can easily hold my library) those issues are gone as well.
That would kill all real and imaginary noisy threats.

I was planning to integrate it completely in the rest of my network (which is a bit complex), but maybe just configuring it as a bridge would be best. Of course there should be a script on it where it syncs the music library from the main NAS but that won't be much of a problem. Statistically SD card aren't very reliable, so a pulling mechanism from a 'safer' NAS will be required.

I will have to make some changes in my WiFi network first though.

Sounds like a good plan Tin. It's more likely to reducing noise rather than eliminating it. The PS might be good, but it still produces noise, as does all that high frequency switching in the processor. You still have a physical and electrical connection to the DS. I'm open to the possibility of a Pi being less noisy than a network switch with the same PS, but its not guaranteed.

Looking forward to reading your findings when its done, because it sounds, theoretically, like a good approach.
If noise travels over a network, the switch should not only broadcast its own noise to the DS but the noise of the other network components as well.
So either the Pi solution is just as noisy, aka NotAtAll, over the network, or much, much less as my 10 other devices are being shielded by the WiFi connection..
As for the power, I will still keep the Pi at another floor as I don't want to look at it.

Don't hold your breath though, it is part of a much larger migration in my tiny data centre. Smile


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - solanum - 2017-11-02 11:00

(2017-11-01 23:39)BB1 Wrote:  Surprisingly the IMHO best method of keeping away tethered network noise from the DS(M) hasn't been mentioned here yet. If connecting the DS(M) via a WLAN bridge to the rest of the network (which includes the NAS), there is only one device and one mains power supply introducing tethered noise. Supplying the WLAN bridge by a Friwo power supply (or any other low-noise power supply) may be of additional benefit.

Indeed, I've been wondering if I was missing out on the possibility of Melco’s majik due to having WiFi between my NAS and my DS.... ;-)

I've also thought of a tunedem style test for the Melco’s or any other NAS set-up. As the only possible way that the NAS or switch can affect the sound is via noise through the cable and the DS has a few seconds of buffer, if you rip the Ethernet cable out of the DS whilst playing your favourite bit of tunedem music, you will suddenly hear unadulterated music (the noise won't be buffered, only the bits).


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - Donald - 2017-11-02 11:08

See my signature in relation to my own Raspberry Pi implementation- hard wired to my Cat 6 network which includes a Netgear 24 port switch and a QNAP TS-451.

I'm wondering how all this network noise manifests itself in relation to sound quality - we all know about the importance of a lowered noise floor but current Linn technology ensures that this really isn't an issue?

Looking back on one of of Tin's earlier expostulations I would offer the following change (emboldened): -

"Linn uses a Mac Mini, but not a Synology or a Buffalo Systems/Melco in their head quarters."

Seems unusual if they have co-developed an "audiophile NAS" - whatever that may mean?


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - Tin - 2017-11-02 11:25

(2017-11-02 11:00)solanum Wrote:  As the only possible way that the NAS or switch can affect the sound is via noise through the cable and the DS has a few seconds of buffer, if you rip the Ethernet cable out of the DS whilst playing your favourite bit of tunedem music, you will suddenly hear unadulterated music (the noise won't be buffered, only the bits).
This has been suggested earlier, a year or two ago, by Linnrd if I remember correctly.


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - timster (RadiatorCatHammock) - 2017-11-02 11:50

(2017-11-02 11:08)Donald Wrote:  See my signature in relation to my own Raspberry Pi implementation- hard wired to my Cat 6 network which includes a Netgear 24 port switch and a QNAP TS-451.

I'm wondering how all this network noise manifests itself in relation to sound quality - we all know about the importance of a lowered noise floor but current Linn technology ensures that this really isn't an issue?

Looking back on one of of Tin's earlier expostulations I would offer the following change (emboldened): -

"Linn uses a Mac Mini, but not a Synology or a Buffalo Systems/Melco in their head quarters."

Seems unusual if they have co-developed an "audiophile NAS" - whatever that may mean?

You'd have thought if they used any, it would be a QNAP seeing as that's the only one they support for server software.


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - Donald - 2017-11-02 12:01

(2017-11-02 11:25)Tin Wrote:  
(2017-11-02 11:00)solanum Wrote:  As the only possible way that the NAS or switch can affect the sound is via noise through the cable and the DS has a few seconds of buffer, if you rip the Ethernet cable out of the DS whilst playing your favourite bit of tunedem music, you will suddenly hear unadulterated music (the noise won't be buffered, only the bits).
This has been suggested earlier, a year or two ago, by Linnrd if I remember correctly.

On a good day with a tail wind you can get the DS (or in my case DSM) to continue to play music for about 6 seconds after pulling the plug which is some indication of the size of the buffer.

So if the music you get to hear is coming from the buffer then I'm not sure what point is being made here - will this "unadulterated music" sound better or worse? With the Ethernet cable plugged in does that mean that any network noise is making its way through to the buffer and will be audible?

This Thread is starting to drift again into territory where I tend to bail out - in any case I only have a modest QNAP NAS which apparently doesn't qualify as an "audiophile NAS" so what would I know! Smile


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - sunbeamgls - 2017-11-02 14:38

(2017-11-02 10:08)Tin Wrote:  
(2017-11-02 09:27)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2017-11-02 07:52)Tin Wrote:  I am contemplating building a Raspberry Pi based NAS which only has a wired connection to the DS and a WiFi connection to the rest of the network.
The Pi will get a Friwo powersupply as well.
And as a Pi doesn't have any moving parts and won't need any cables for storage (an SD card can easily hold my library) those issues are gone as well.
That would kill all real and imaginary noisy threats.

I was planning to integrate it completely in the rest of my network (which is a bit complex), but maybe just configuring it as a bridge would be best. Of course there should be a script on it where it syncs the music library from the main NAS but that won't be much of a problem. Statistically SD card aren't very reliable, so a pulling mechanism from a 'safer' NAS will be required.

I will have to make some changes in my WiFi network first though.

Sounds like a good plan Tin. It's more likely to reducing noise rather than eliminating it. The PS might be good, but it still produces noise, as does all that high frequency switching in the processor. You still have a physical and electrical connection to the DS. I'm open to the possibility of a Pi being less noisy than a network switch with the same PS, but its not guaranteed.

Looking forward to reading your findings when its done, because it sounds, theoretically, like a good approach.
If noise travels over a network, the switch should not only broadcast its own noise to the DS but the noise of the other network components as well.
So either the Pi solution is just as noisy, aka NotAtAll, over the network, or much, much less as my 10 other devices are being shielded by the WiFi connection..
As for the power, I will still keep the Pi at another floor as I don't want to look at it.

Don't hold your breath though, it is part of a much larger migration in my tiny data centre. Smile
I agree there is the possibility of a Pi being quieter. It was your assertion that it would "kill all real noisy threats" that I would question. It won't, but it might reduce them.


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - Tin - 2017-11-02 15:06

(2017-11-02 14:38)sunbeamgls Wrote:  I agree there is the possibility of a Pi being quieter. It was your assertion that it would "kill all real noisy threats" that I would question. It won't, but it might reduce them.
Fair enough.
"Kill as many of all possible and impossible threats as possibly is possible and impossible" then. Smile


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - sunbeamgls - 2017-11-02 19:44

That's possibly impossible.


RE: Linn Co-develops Audiophile NAS - solanum - 2017-11-02 21:53

(2017-11-02 12:01)Donald Wrote:  On a good day with a tail wind you can get the DS (or in my case DSM) to continue to play music for about 6 seconds after pulling the plug which is some indication of the size of the buffer.

So if the music you get to hear is coming from the buffer then I'm not sure what point is being made here - will this "unadulterated music" sound better or worse? With the Ethernet cable plugged in does that mean that any network noise is making its way through to the buffer and will be audible?

This Thread is starting to drift again into territory where I tend to bail out - in any case I only have a modest QNAP NAS which apparently doesn't qualify as an "audiophile NAS" so what would I know! Smile

My comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek...... Tongue But the buffer is data storage, it isn't storing whatever electronic noise is coming over the Ethernet, so theoretically, if noise over the Ethernet cable was audibly impacting the sound quality, pulling out the Ethernet cable should remove that within some small fraction of a second. If defy anyone to demonstrably prove they can hear this though.