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Uncompressed FLAC
2012-09-19, 23:47
Post: #201
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-19 23:02)linnrd Wrote:  You'd better change your sig soon. At least, before you are told that your system is not "revealing enough".Big Grin
(2012-09-19 12:29)GarryC Wrote:  OK I tried it.

I coverted an album from Flac compressed to Flac uncompressed and also wav.

I couldn't hear any difference.

Am I going deaf?

Some people have observed that the effect is negligible (or even totally absent) on some tracks, but is abundantly clear on others... So maybe try a few other musical choices*

....not wishing to get into hocus pocus or anything like that - nobody fully understands the factors in play on this yet - so for it to be variable in scale is unsurprising.

This said - others have also suggested they have extensively listened and heard no differences. That's why this is an interesting subject! ...the truth is out there!



*failing that - I recommend Solos RolleyesBig Grin

Source: Klimax DS/1, Sneaky DS, Denon DVD-A1UD

Control: Klimax Kontrol/1, Denon AVP-A1HDA

Playback: Klimax Solo/1, Klimax 350P, Klimax 340A, Custom 2K 106C, Monitor Audio GXFX, Denon POA-A1HD
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2012-09-20, 00:08 (This post was last modified: 2012-09-20 00:10 by Briain.)
Post: #202
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
Hahaha! When I first read that, I totally misread the last bit and thought you'd written 'failing that - I recommend Sonos'! I guess I might soon have to consider a visit to SpecSavers (or alcoholics anonymous)!

Big Grin Big Grin

AV System: Sky+, HTPC & Roku -> ADSM/3 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
Bedroom: ADSM/3 -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik sub
Sneaky DS -> Roomamp -> 104C (awaiting installation in kitchen; home-brew 'floor sub' yet to be designed)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2012-09-20, 00:23
Post: #203
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
This evening, I did some additional testing with various rips and file formats.

Using dBpoweramp, I ripped CD material to 16 bit and 24 bit and to FLAC_8(compressed), FLAC_U(ncompressed), WAV and AIFF.
I also converted the AIFF rips to WAV, FLAC_8 and FLAC_U.

My non-scientific first-impressions after a few hours:
I preferred:
24 bit over 16 bit.
WAV over AIFF
AIFF over FLAC
FLAC_8 vs FLAC_U: not sure. Might be uncompessed had the edge.

I preferred all AIFF conversions to other formats over direct rips to the other formats.
The magic combination: 24 bit rip to AIFF converted to WAV (preferred over the direct rip to 24 bit WAV and preferred over the 24 bit AIFF rip).

Has anyone tried 32 bit yet Big Grin ?

FYI:
I used a laptop with a DHCP server on it (so the DS can obtain an IP adress).
The files were stored on the SSD of the laptop.
I also hooked up an USB HDD and compared the SSD tot the USB HDD.
I had a preference for the SSD. It seemed as if the noise floor was lower with the SSD (no motor, no moving parts?). The downside: this is getting way too expensive...

Paul

SPACED in a galaxy far, far away...
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2012-09-20, 00:57
Post: #204
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
32 bit is 24 bit (to keep resolution) plus an 8 bit volume mix setting.

Cymbiosis Klimax LP12 SE - Karmen Kandid, Radikal/1M KDS/1 KK/1 Solos/1 K200 242/1
Kisto, AV2250/d, Komponent 104
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2012-09-20, 08:02
Post: #205
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-20 00:57)Warren Wrote:  32 bit is 24 bit (to keep resolution) plus an 8 bit volume mix setting.

Is't that the same as from 16 to 24 bit. Adding zero's ?

Paul

SPACED in a galaxy far, far away...
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2012-09-20, 10:02
Post: #206
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-20 00:23)konartel Wrote:  This evening, I did some additional testing with various rips and file formats.

Using dBpoweramp, I ripped CD material to 16 bit and 24 bit and to FLAC_8(compressed), FLAC_U(ncompressed), WAV and AIFF.
I also converted the AIFF rips to WAV, FLAC_8 and FLAC_U.

My non-scientific first-impressions after a few hours:
I preferred:
24 bit over 16 bit.
WAV over AIFF
AIFF over FLAC
FLAC_8 vs FLAC_U: not sure. Might be uncompessed had the edge.

These results match my preferences. For the last (I did FLAC_5 vs FLAC_U), I couldn't hear any difference.

Quote:I preferred all AIFF conversions to other formats over direct rips to the other formats.
The magic combination: 24 bit rip to AIFF converted to WAV (preferred over the direct rip to 24 bit WAV and preferred over the 24 bit AIFF rip).

Did you do a bit comparison of the AIFF rip to WAV conversion and the direct rip to WAV? I'd have expected these to be bit-identical.

Quote:Has anyone tried 32 bit yet Big Grin ?

The DS is limited to 24/192, so I wasn't able to try 32-bit.

Quote:FYI:
I used a laptop with a DHCP server on it (so the DS can obtain an IP adress).
The files were stored on the SSD of the laptop.
I also hooked up an USB HDD and compared the SSD tot the USB HDD.
I had a preference for the SSD. It seemed as if the noise floor was lower with the SSD (no motor, no moving parts?). The downside: this is getting way too expensive...

Paul

This result isn't surprising, as technical measurements have been done which prove that HDDs are noisier than SSDs. Smile
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2012-09-20, 12:42
Post: #207
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-20 10:02)simoncn Wrote:  Did you do a bit comparison of the AIFF rip to WAV conversion and the direct rip to WAV? I'd have expected these to be bit-identical.

I have compared the AIFF to WAV vs direct WAV earlier, and at that time, I converted all files to FLAC and extracted the audio portion with flac.exe -d. The MD5checksums of these files were identical.
That's why I described it as the "magic" combination. The audio portion of the files seems bit identical but there is a clear difference in sound quality if the initial rip is AIFF.
I prefer the "AIFF based" WAV to direct AIFF and direct WAV.

Paul

SPACED in a galaxy far, far away...
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2012-09-20, 13:49
Post: #208
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-20 12:42)konartel Wrote:  
(2012-09-20 10:02)simoncn Wrote:  Did you do a bit comparison of the AIFF rip to WAV conversion and the direct rip to WAV? I'd have expected these to be bit-identical.

I have compared the AIFF to WAV vs direct WAV earlier, and at that time, I converted all files to FLAC and extracted the audio portion with flac.exe -d. The MD5checksums of these files were identical.
That's why I described it as the "magic" combination. The audio portion of the files seems bit identical but there is a clear difference in sound quality if the initial rip is AIFF.
I prefer the "AIFF based" WAV to direct AIFF and direct WAV.

Paul

My question was whether you have done a full bitwise comparison of the two WAV files. This would include the non-audio portions as well as the audio portions. Do the two WAV files have identical sizes and identical contents?
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2012-09-20, 14:18 (This post was last modified: 2012-09-20 14:23 by konartel.)
Post: #209
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-20 13:49)simoncn Wrote:  My question was whether you have done a full bitwise comparison of the two WAV files. This would include the non-audio portions as well as the audio portions. Do the two WAV files have identical sizes and identical contents?

The MD5 sums of the WAV files are different.
I can't get the jpeg to show up.


   

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2012-09-20, 14:26 (This post was last modified: 2012-09-20 17:23 by Briain.)
Post: #210
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-20 12:42)konartel Wrote:  I have compared the AIFF to WAV vs direct WAV earlier, and at that time, I converted all files to FLAC and extracted the audio portion with flac.exe -d. The MD5checksums of these files were identical.
That's why I described it as the "magic" combination. The audio portion of the files seems bit identical but there is a clear difference in sound quality if the initial rip is AIFF.
I prefer the "AIFF based" WAV to direct AIFF and direct WAV.

Paul

Hi

Ignoring error correction overheads, isn't an audio CD basically just a TOC and a bunch of endian swapped WAV files (i.e. WAV files with MSB at the other end of the words)? If so, all rips using Windows based software will likely make initial extractions to temporary WAV file files (then converted to the compression format of your choice as the second stage of a two stage process). I assume AIFF is the Apple equivalent of WAV and thus is very similar (but I don't know that).

Apologies if I've got that wrong or missed something obvious; it was about 15 years ago (actually, probably quite a lot longer) that I read up on how CD's work and I'd really have to go read it again to remind myself what the situation is (which I can't be bothered doing at the moment). Basically, what I'm saying is that assuming my memory serves me correctly (and it might not be) you're effectively converting upsidedown WAV files (coming off the CD) to right-way-up WAV files (as temp files on the HDD), then to AIFF (which is likely similar to WAV) and then back to WAV again. Or to look at it another way, very WAV-like files are the native CD content, so why would converting to AIFF and back again make a difference?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it does or doesn't make a difference (I've never tried it), but I am saying that if it does, I wonder what could be getting altered (or 'corrected') by doing so?

Bri

AV System: Sky+, HTPC & Roku -> ADSM/3 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
Bedroom: ADSM/3 -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik sub
Sneaky DS -> Roomamp -> 104C (awaiting installation in kitchen; home-brew 'floor sub' yet to be designed)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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