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Uncompressed FLAC
2012-09-02, 13:50
Post: #31
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-01 06:51)MattC Wrote:  Having been tipped off by other threads and by a couple of friends to try it - I've heard the benefits of Uncompressed FLAC with my own ears...

Playing a file with FLAC compression level 5 - and then playing the same file having being batch converted to Uncompresssed - the differences and benefits are clear and not small. I can only currently explain the clear sonic differences by the removal of the processing overhead and any timing issues that this may introduce - but this particular question needs more scientific brains than mine to consider it before any conclusions can be drawn.

This said - I can understand if Linn themselves are a little uncomfortable on this question (the inability to play a compressed FLAC file - which has been promoted as THE format for years now - without some sound changingS overhead being introduced COULD be embarrassing - although id hope they would embrace it as a free "upgrade") but I KNOW there are Linn Staffers who are absolutely convinced by the benefits of FLAC Uncimpresssed.

(as an aside - perhaps this is why Naim have been promoting WAV - uncompressed by nature - all along)

...anyway - try it for yourself (@Rockfather - you really should) and see what you think - its very simple to do - simply take an existing FLAC file (which will have compression - probably at level 5) and run it through DBPoweramp or XLD and output to a different folder as FLAC Uncompressed. Play the two back to back, blind, however you want...you'll see what I'm going in about!

Even if i you don't think it sounds BETTER uncompressed (and I do - it's more musical, more analogue, more tunedem - by some margin) then you will surely recognise it sounds DIFFERENT - and that in a lossless world surely deserves some debate and explaination in itself.

I'm going to experiment more - but right now am considering converting my entire library to uncompressed FLAC - £300 in extra disc - but A LOT of extra music!

Matt

I'm interested in having a listen to this. Can you name some tracks which you thought benefitted most from being un compressed and hopefully I will also have some of the same ones and can give a try.

Cheers

Renew DS, John Wood Tube Pre, 2 x Krell KMA, Wilson Benesch Vectors,WD Live
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2012-09-02, 14:21
Post: #32
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
This maybe of some use?


http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread...versus-WAV

Most of it went over my headBig Grin

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2012-09-02, 22:24
Post: #33
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
I tried setting Asset to convert to wav and did two tests - a short term test comparing the same track several times wav vs compressed flac, and then left asset converting to wav for a good two or three months before turning the wav conversion off.

I thought I heard differences in the short term test at one stage but concluded I'd imagined them - they didn't always appear to me and sometimes I'd perceive the difference the other way around. Didn't feel any difference when switching off the conversion to wav.

I have to say I didn't expect to hear any difference. First of all, flac decode is designed not to be a cpu heavy operation. Second, the DS from inception was designed to decode and play flac, from power supply to board layout to whatever else. And third, certainly no-one suggests 24/96 or 24/192 files sound any worse than 16/44, but no-one is bothered by the extra processing power required to play 24/96 or 24/192 files.
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2012-09-03, 11:15 (This post was last modified: 2012-09-03 11:17 by moomintroll.)
Post: #34
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
Intrigued by this, I've just converted a 24/96 album to uncompressed flac using DbPoweramp and am listening to tracks back to back - to the point where I have no idea which one is compressed or other wise.

So far, I cannot detect ANY difference.

The system used is KK/1/D, KDS/1/D and Klimax 350A/D. Balanced silvers throughout.

KDS is running latest Davaar 9 beta.

'troll
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2012-09-03, 11:37 (This post was last modified: 2012-09-03 11:40 by MattC.)
Post: #35
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
I'm helping to arrange an evening at the Sound Organisation in York to get to the bottom of this - anybody nearby (or anybody fancying a break in the wonderful city of York - with a musical interlude in the middle!) will be welcome.

Come along and hear what it is i (and others) have been going on about - or throw tomatos at us - either way - should be a good night!

More details to follow.
(2012-09-02 13:50)Keith Wrote:  
(2012-09-01 06:51)MattC Wrote:  Having been tipped off by other threads and by a couple of friends to try it - I've heard the benefits of Uncompressed FLAC with my own ears...

Playing a file with FLAC compression level 5 - and then playing the same file having being batch converted to Uncompresssed - the differences and benefits are clear and not small. I can only currently explain the clear sonic differences by the removal of the processing overhead and any timing issues that this may introduce - but this particular question needs more scientific brains than mine to consider it before any conclusions can be drawn.

This said - I can understand if Linn themselves are a little uncomfortable on this question (the inability to play a compressed FLAC file - which has been promoted as THE format for years now - without some sound changingS overhead being introduced COULD be embarrassing - although id hope they would embrace it as a free "upgrade") but I KNOW there are Linn Staffers who are absolutely convinced by the benefits of FLAC Uncimpresssed.

(as an aside - perhaps this is why Naim have been promoting WAV - uncompressed by nature - all along)

...anyway - try it for yourself (@Rockfather - you really should) and see what you think - its very simple to do - simply take an existing FLAC file (which will have compression - probably at level 5) and run it through DBPoweramp or XLD and output to a different folder as FLAC Uncompressed. Play the two back to back, blind, however you want...you'll see what I'm going in about!

Even if i you don't think it sounds BETTER uncompressed (and I do - it's more musical, more analogue, more tunedem - by some margin) then you will surely recognise it sounds DIFFERENT - and that in a lossless world surely deserves some debate and explaination in itself.

I'm going to experiment more - but right now am considering converting my entire library to uncompressed FLAC - £300 in extra disc - but A LOT of extra music!

Matt

I'm interested in having a listen to this. Can you name some tracks which you thought benefitted most from being un compressed and hopefully I will also have some of the same ones and can give a try.

Cheers

The Track that we prinipally used was "Lovesong" from the Adele Album "21" - with uncomporessed FLAC - the music seemsed slower and easier to follow, and the decay on the delicately brushed cymbals was much more natural and longer...


...worth a try!

Source: Klimax DS/1, Sneaky DS, Denon DVD-A1UD

Control: Klimax Kontrol/1, Denon AVP-A1HDA

Playback: Klimax Solo/1, Klimax 350P, Klimax 340A, Custom 2K 106C, Monitor Audio GXFX, Denon POA-A1HD
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2012-09-03, 11:43
Post: #36
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-03 11:37)MattC Wrote:  I'm helping to arrange an evening at the Sound Organisation in York to get to the bottom of this - anybody nearby (or anybody fancying a break in the wonderful city of York - with a musical interlude in the middle!) will be welcome.

Come along and hear what it is i (and others) have been going on about - or throw tomatos at us - either way - should be a good night!

More details to follow.
(2012-09-02 13:50)Keith Wrote:  
(2012-09-01 06:51)MattC Wrote:  Having been tipped off by other threads and by a couple of friends to try it - I've heard the benefits of Uncompressed FLAC with my own ears...

Playing a file with FLAC compression level 5 - and then playing the same file having being batch converted to Uncompresssed - the differences and benefits are clear and not small. I can only currently explain the clear sonic differences by the removal of the processing overhead and any timing issues that this may introduce - but this particular question needs more scientific brains than mine to consider it before any conclusions can be drawn.

This said - I can understand if Linn themselves are a little uncomfortable on this question (the inability to play a compressed FLAC file - which has been promoted as THE format for years now - without some sound changingS overhead being introduced COULD be embarrassing - although id hope they would embrace it as a free "upgrade") but I KNOW there are Linn Staffers who are absolutely convinced by the benefits of FLAC Uncimpresssed.

(as an aside - perhaps this is why Naim have been promoting WAV - uncompressed by nature - all along)

...anyway - try it for yourself (@Rockfather - you really should) and see what you think - its very simple to do - simply take an existing FLAC file (which will have compression - probably at level 5) and run it through DBPoweramp or XLD and output to a different folder as FLAC Uncompressed. Play the two back to back, blind, however you want...you'll see what I'm going in about!

Even if i you don't think it sounds BETTER uncompressed (and I do - it's more musical, more analogue, more tunedem - by some margin) then you will surely recognise it sounds DIFFERENT - and that in a lossless world surely deserves some debate and explaination in itself.

I'm going to experiment more - but right now am considering converting my entire library to uncompressed FLAC - £300 in extra disc - but A LOT of extra music!

Matt

I'm interested in having a listen to this. Can you name some tracks which you thought benefitted most from being un compressed and hopefully I will also have some of the same ones and can give a try.

Cheers

The Track that we prinipally used was "Lovesong" from the Adele Album "21" - with uncomporessed FLAC - the music seemsed slower and easier to follow, and the decay on the delicately brushed cymbals was much more natural and longer...


...worth a try!

I've got that and will give it a go...........by the way if we can throw tomatoes at you does that mean the abl can bring George? Big Grin

Renew DS, John Wood Tube Pre, 2 x Krell KMA, Wilson Benesch Vectors,WD Live
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2012-09-03, 12:24
Post: #37
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
MattC,

what system was this demonstrated on (I assume a KDS), is it observable on all of the DS range, and is it obvious on Naim etc?

'troll
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2012-09-03, 12:40
Post: #38
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-03 12:24)moomintroll Wrote:  MattC,

what system was this demonstrated on (I assume a KDS), is it observable on all of the DS range, and is it obvious on Naim etc?

'troll

Systems were from both ends of the spectrum - on a Kiko (REALLY obvious) and on a KDS/KK/Solo/350 system (less obvious - but clearly there)

Source: Klimax DS/1, Sneaky DS, Denon DVD-A1UD

Control: Klimax Kontrol/1, Denon AVP-A1HDA

Playback: Klimax Solo/1, Klimax 350P, Klimax 340A, Custom 2K 106C, Monitor Audio GXFX, Denon POA-A1HD
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2012-09-03, 12:42
Post: #39
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
My findings exactly. I've switched Asset to convert to WAV again and am running a different upnp server serving the original flacs. I'll do some more tests tonight but I found it hard to spot a difference. If there was a difference I couldn't detect which was 'better' but it's easy to imagine there is a difference.

It is undeniable though that there are different processes in play within the DS when playing flac or wav files and, after all, a Klimax DS does sound different to a Majik DS and both function mainly within the digital domain so arguably there 'should' be a difference between flac & wav. I dispute that it's hugely noticeable though.


(2012-09-02 22:24)MnM Wrote:  I tried setting Asset to convert to wav and did two tests - a short term test comparing the same track several times wav vs compressed flac, and then left asset converting to wav for a good two or three months before turning the wav conversion off.

I thought I heard differences in the short term test at one stage but concluded I'd imagined them - they didn't always appear to me and sometimes I'd perceive the difference the other way around. Didn't feel any difference when switching off the conversion to wav.

I have to say I didn't expect to hear any difference. First of all, flac decode is designed not to be a cpu heavy operation. Second, the DS from inception was designed to decode and play flac, from power supply to board layout to whatever else. And third, certainly no-one suggests 24/96 or 24/192 files sound any worse than 16/44, but no-one is bothered by the extra processing power required to play 24/96 or 24/192 files.

Rega RP6/Exact, Devialet 200, Raidho C-1.1 speakers, fancy cables and strange wooden grounding boxes.
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2012-09-03, 12:42
Post: #40
RE: Uncompressed FLAC
(2012-09-03 11:43)Keith Wrote:  
(2012-09-03 11:37)MattC Wrote:  The Track that we prinipally used was "Lovesong" from the Adele Album "21" - with uncomporessed FLAC - the music seemsed slower and easier to follow, and the decay on the delicately brushed cymbals was much more natural and longer...


...worth a try!

I've got that and will give it a go...........by the way if we can throw tomatoes at you does that mean the abl can bring George? Big Grin

I actually have a better suggestion for what abl should do with George... Wink

Source: Klimax DS/1, Sneaky DS, Denon DVD-A1UD

Control: Klimax Kontrol/1, Denon AVP-A1HDA

Playback: Klimax Solo/1, Klimax 350P, Klimax 340A, Custom 2K 106C, Monitor Audio GXFX, Denon POA-A1HD
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