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Roon support for Linn DS
2016-10-09, 18:48
Post: #11
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
Keith, thanks very much for this update, and for working with Roon to get Songcast supported. I agree with other posters that it was generous to lend the DS devices to Roon, and would still like to see them implement Songcast.

That said, the other possible approach here would be for Linn to support Roon's streaming protocol (RAAT) in its DS devices. My understanding (based on the post quoted below) is that with Songcast, the sending device controls the clock. In the case of Roon, that would mean the PC running Roon would control the clock, rather than the superior clock in the DS device. The post below is old, and I do not know if this is still correct, particularly with the impressive recent Davaar re-write. If this is still correct, though, one advantage of implementing RAAT support in Linn's devices would be that the DS devices would control the clock, which should lead to better sound quality.

While Roon should carry through on their commitment regarding Songcast, it would also be nice if Linn would take a serious look at implementing RAAT support. This is not meant in any way to denigrate all the excellent work Linn has done, including the laudable decision to release the OpenHome extensions and Songcast as open source projects. Implementing RAAT would just give Linn's users (including me) more options, and would be helpful commercially as an increasing number of high-end competitors (including Naim and DCS) implement RAAT support.

(2013-07-23 09:00)rockfather Wrote:  
(2011-05-15 23:05)Gonzo Wrote:  I have just installed the latest Davaar update on my KDS Dyn and Sneaky DS set up. A simple question as I don't fully understand how the Songcast functionality works. When I am using the Sneaky DS as the Songcast sender and the KDS as the receiver, is that actually using anything in the Sneaky that will have an impact on the sound quality or is it similar to using the KDS on it's own?

G

With Songcast, the audio data is sent digitally, so it will use the DAC(s) and analogue output stages on the receiving device. However to maintain synchronization the timing comes from the sending device.

Hence, theoretically, to get the best audio quality, the device with the best clock should be used as the sender.
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2016-10-09, 19:07
Post: #12
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
Excellent post. I too concur that the only way I would use ROON would be if RAAT were implemented. I would not consider using ROON, or any other control point, if sound quality were to be compromised.

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2016-10-09, 19:08
Post: #13
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2016-10-09 19:07)glevethan Wrote:  Excellent post. I too concur that the only way I would use ROON would be if RAAT were implemented. I would not consider using ROON, or any other control point, if sound quality were to be compromised.

+1

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2016-10-09, 19:57
Post: #14
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2016-10-09 19:07)glevethan Wrote:  Excellent post. I too concur that the only way I would use ROON would be if RAAT were implemented. I would not consider using ROON, or any other control point, if sound quality were to be compromised.

+1
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2016-10-10, 01:28
Post: #15
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2016-10-09 19:07)glevethan Wrote:  Excellent post. I too concur that the only way I would use ROON would be if RAAT were implemented. I would not consider using ROON, or any other control point, if sound quality were to be compromised.

Ditto!
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2016-10-10, 01:55
Post: #16
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
Hi all,

I have been pointed to the Roon Forums and have spent this afternoon reading a number of threads.

It is unfortunate that I learned today from their forums that Roon no longer wish to implement Songcast. No one from Roon has contacted me requesting a different approach to the one we agreed in May 2015, and then was re-iterated in January and March of 2016. We would have welcomed an email or a phone call in order to help them resolve any issues they had encountered, discuss their concerns, and work together to find a solution for our joint customers.

In the spirit of cooperation, we’d love to offer 3 approaches to get this done and deliver Linn/Roon interoperability. If Roon wishes to proceed with any of these approaches, we’ll start the work on our side tomorrow.

1) Roon let Linn know what issues they had implementing Songcast. We can then work together to resolve these. We’d be very open to additions to the Songcast protocol to more easily support the point to point nature of Roon.

2) Roon open source or openly specify RAAT. Linn takes open access very seriously. Being in control of our source base and being able to ship without restriction is what has allowed us to provide updates, new features, and better performance to every DS for over 9 years. Our commitment is to continue to support the DS’s, right back to the original Klimax DS from September 2007, for as long as possible.

3) If Roon is uncomfortable with Songcast and unable or unwilling to open RAAT, then we’d be happy to collaborate on the creation of a new protocol that meets the requirements of both Linn and Roon. Both Linn and Roon are very experienced in design of such protocols and I’m confident together we could deliver the highest quality performance in a maintainable package quickly.

I’ll write Roon again this evening to ensure everyone has the same information.

Looking forward to seeing Roon talking to the DS soon.

Best regards,

Keith
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2016-10-10, 06:34
Post: #17
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
I have to agree full heartedly on the open source part.
There is no reason to keep protocols closed except as a method to control the users instead of software.
Roons value should be in their library, not in their control of who can use it.
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2016-10-10, 07:35
Post: #18
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
Rotertson! Thank you, you are my angel!

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2016-10-10, 08:39
Post: #19
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
I don't expect Roon support to happen on Linn. Here is my take on the situation as I had posted earlier in another thread:

"Roon's product is great but afaik it's a startup operating at a loss and trying to get acquired. So eventually they will either become part of some big tech or media-companies portfolio or disappear just like one of these:

https://medium.com/cuepoint/the-music-in....5utwsxgg1

An attempt to replicate Roon would be financially unattainable and foolish for Linn. Offering Roon on DS would have the downside of ceding control of the control-point and leaving Linn in the cold if Roon folds or gets acquired. In the latter case they could suddenly be dependent on the goodwill of a big competitor.

So strategically they are better off with bare-bones aesthetic and functionality in their software just like their hardware is no nonsense Bauhaus form-follows-function stuff."

(http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.p...pid408912)

To expand further of this: Roon is a spinoff of Meridian a very successful British Audio-company who happens to sell audio-hardware but whose biggest chunk of revenue comes from licensing codecs used in Blu-Ray and other physical media. Some of these licenses expire, other show diminishing returns as physical media get replaced by streaming and download.

Meridian reacted by spinning off two companies trying to create new revenue-opportunities from the emerging streaming market: Roon & MQA.

Roon aims to own the user-experience and the control point and establish a proprietary (i.e. monetizable) protocol for audiophile streaming: RAAT.

MQA attempts to own the distribution of streaming music by offering a clever DRM-codec which requires any DAC or Streamer to contain an MQA-licensed hardware dongle to unlock the high-rez content of an MQA file.

'Software eats the world' is the mantra by a famous Silicon Valley investor and Roon and MQA are strategic attempts to create software that feeds on the revenue of audiophile hardware.

Hence both Roon & MQA decidedly are not open source because they want to make money from licensing these to other manufactures. They will require anybody implementing their protocols or codecs to fork over a piece of their revenue. And once they created a lock-in cause they offer the best user experience (Roon), or have managed to pull the music-industry on their codec (MQA) they can pretty much dictate any price for their licenses from a company like Linn, Naim etc.

Linn knows this and has decided to go the open-soure path with DS (not with Exakt) and I applaud them for it. The price is probably no Roon support ever.

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2016-10-10, 08:58
Post: #20
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
Mcgillroy; thank you. I hadn't looked at Roon before, but I've spent enough time at reading about MQA and consider it a very nasty affair.
If Roon uses the same tactic.. than I feel sorry for the Roon fans above, but I do hope that Linn will keep a straight back.

The discussion about open software versus closed software and how to control customers is something that most people never think about nor realise that it can have a severe impact.

What Meridian is trying to do is trying to move the music away from a situation where each device can play every music format to a world where they have control.

To everybody;
Imagine that VCRs were not devices, but software. Now Meridian comes in and decides that only VHS is supported. Or, lets say you bought some CDs in the USA and Meridian decides that you're in the wrong region. Or, lets say they decide that studios and equipment manufactorers need to pay them money to be able to use a 5.1 music format.
Sounds a bit to familiar? This is what open source versus closed protocols discussion is all about.
If you think that Linns stance is wrong.. think again.
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