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Roon support for Linn DS
2016-10-10, 09:11
Post: #21
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
I am very happy that LINN has started to communicate with their most committed customers here in the forum about what might happen in the future; there have been many questions in the pastime e.g. with regard to ROON which haven't been answered so far

Another example: I very much appreciate that it has been announced that Katalyst will be ported to E350 and Klimax Exaktboxes and that everybody, who purchases one of those in advance, gets the upgrade for free - this is a new openness form LINN, GREAT! Big Grin

With regard to LINN and ROON: I very much hope that LINN and ROON will find a way that the best streaming technology and the best control point software can work together without compromise in sound quality (in this particular case I personally don't care about open source, I am just interested in the result from a customer perspective)

KDSM/1, Twins (D), Katalyst Komris, Roon
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2016-10-10, 09:44
Post: #22
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2016-10-10 09:11)fschmeis Wrote:  I am very happy that LINN has started to communicate with their most committed customers here in the forum about what might happen in the future; there have been many questions in the pastime e.g. with regard to ROON which haven't been answered so far

Another example: I very much appreciate that it has been announced that Katalyst will be ported to E350 and Klimax Exaktboxes and that everybody, who purchases one of those in advance, gets the upgrade for free - this is a new openness form LINN, GREAT! Big Grin

With regard to LINN and ROON: I very much hope that LINN and ROON will find a way that the best streaming technology and the best control point software can work together without compromise in sound quality (in this particular case I personally don't care about open source, I am just interested in the result from a customer perspective)
That result might be that you'd have to sell your Linn equipment at a significant loss if Meridian/MQA/Roon would decide that Linn equipment would only be able to play 256kb MP3s because Linn for some reason wasn't planning to pay the increased licence fee.
Just like Apple removes apps from their store without anyone being able to do something about, so can Meridian/MQA/Roon do that with supported hardware.
Nice customer perspective isn't it?
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2016-10-10, 11:01
Post: #23
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2016-10-10 09:44)Tin Wrote:  
(2016-10-10 09:11)fschmeis Wrote:  I am very happy that LINN has started to communicate with their most committed customers here in the forum about what might happen in the future; there have been many questions in the pastime e.g. with regard to ROON which haven't been answered so far

Another example: I very much appreciate that it has been announced that Katalyst will be ported to E350 and Klimax Exaktboxes and that everybody, who purchases one of those in advance, gets the upgrade for free - this is a new openness form LINN, GREAT! Big Grin

With regard to LINN and ROON: I very much hope that LINN and ROON will find a way that the best streaming technology and the best control point software can work together without compromise in sound quality (in this particular case I personally don't care about open source, I am just interested in the result from a customer perspective)
That result might be that you'd have to sell your Linn equipment at a significant loss if Meridian/MQA/Roon would decide that Linn equipment would only be able to play 256kb MP3s because Linn for some reason wasn't planning to pay the increased licence fee.
Just like Apple removes apps from their store without anyone being able to do something about, so can Meridian/MQA/Roon do that with supported hardware.
Nice customer perspective isn't it?

Hi Tin,

it is very good to have an idea about the "hidden agenda" of ROON resp. Meridian.

Even if LINN implements RAAT I would strongly recommend to continue to offer Kazoo; ROON can be used by LINN dealers to present LINN streamers and offer LINN customers a state of the art control point and LINN customers willing to pay those 119 $ / year of those 499 $ for lifetime can use it; the rest will continue to use Kazoo ... no need to abstain from high rez files ...

Best regards
Frank

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2016-10-10, 11:23
Post: #24
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2016-10-10 11:01)fschmeis Wrote:  
(2016-10-10 09:44)Tin Wrote:  
(2016-10-10 09:11)fschmeis Wrote:  I am very happy that LINN has started to communicate with their most committed customers here in the forum about what might happen in the future; there have been many questions in the pastime e.g. with regard to ROON which haven't been answered so far

Another example: I very much appreciate that it has been announced that Katalyst will be ported to E350 and Klimax Exaktboxes and that everybody, who purchases one of those in advance, gets the upgrade for free - this is a new openness form LINN, GREAT! Big Grin

With regard to LINN and ROON: I very much hope that LINN and ROON will find a way that the best streaming technology and the best control point software can work together without compromise in sound quality (in this particular case I personally don't care about open source, I am just interested in the result from a customer perspective)
That result might be that you'd have to sell your Linn equipment at a significant loss if Meridian/MQA/Roon would decide that Linn equipment would only be able to play 256kb MP3s because Linn for some reason wasn't planning to pay the increased licence fee.
Just like Apple removes apps from their store without anyone being able to do something about, so can Meridian/MQA/Roon do that with supported hardware.
Nice customer perspective isn't it?

Hi Tin,

it is very good to have an idea about the "hidden agenda" of ROON resp. Meridian.

Even if LINN implements RAAT I would strongly recommend to continue to offer Kazoo; ROON can be used by LINN dealers to present LINN streamers and offer LINN customers a state of the art control point and LINN customers willing to pay those 119 $ / year of those 499 $ for lifetime can use it; the rest will continue to use Kazoo ... no need to abstain from high rez files ...

Best regards
Frank
Of course I don't know if Meridian does have a hidden agenda, but they sure seem to love looking at products that can support hidden agendas.

Another scenario:
I wouldn't be surprised if Naim will find out in 2 years time that suddenly the new release of Roon/RAAT won't work on their devices anymore, but luckily Meridian has a new lineup of equipment that does. As Naim won't have their own product anymore, nor the employees to work on that, they might get into big trouble.

Linn should never comply to RAAT unless RAAT is being open sourced. I can use any control software I want because Linn uses open protocols. Personally I prefer Bubble DS.

The reason why Linn has to tread carefully is that they hope to persuade Roon in opening up. If they do, it shows that they are not evil. If they do not, it shows that they are. There is no reason to have a closed source -unless- the closedness is part of their business model.
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2016-10-10, 12:07
Post: #25
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
I think Keith's 3 pronged approach says it all. Noting particularly
"2) Roon open source or openly specify RAAT. Linn takes open access very seriously. Being in control of our source base and being able to ship without restriction is what has allowed us to provide updates, new features, and better performance to every DS for over 9 years. Our commitment is to continue to support the DS’s, right back to the original Klimax DS from September 2007, for as long as possible."

"As long as there's no compromise in sound quality" - is that really the only red-line? Discuss... Wink

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2016-10-10, 13:36
Post: #26
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
I agree with and support Keith's call for open source, and while I'd like to see Roon on my KDSM, I can live without it if it compromises sound quality. However I don't see how it can happen: if you're a hardware manufacturer that makes software solely to make your hardware functional, and the hardware is your main source of revenue, then open source makes perfect sense - it lets others make things for your hardware, which makes your hardware more valuable. Roon, on the other hand, is a software company, and their software and licensing is their only source of revenue. Asking them to be open source is like asking Linn to show everyone how to make a KDS, isn't it? What am I missing?

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2016-10-10, 13:55
Post: #27
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2016-10-10 13:36)Antonmb Wrote:  I agree with and support Keith's call for open source, and while I'd like to see Roon on my KDSM, I can live without it if it compromises sound quality. However I don't see how it can happen: if you're a hardware manufacturer that makes software solely to make your hardware functional, and the hardware is your main source of revenue, then open source makes perfect sense - it lets others make things for your hardware, which makes your hardware more valuable. Roon, on the other hand, is a software company, and their software and licensing is their only source of revenue. Asking them to be open source is like asking Linn to show everyone how to make a KDS, isn't it? What am I missing?
Roon doesn't have to open up all of their software, just the protocol it uses to communicate with the hardware. This way other parties can build their own library software if they want to.
Take HTTP, this is an open communication protocol. But you have different browsers, and zillions of websites that use it. Some websites use paywalls to protect their content, and some browsers are exclusive to a specific hardware platform. The same could happen here.
So people who like Roon could use that, while others use a free, but less sophisticated alternative. In the same way a user could decide to upgrade their Sonos to a Linn and still use the software of their choice.
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2016-10-10, 13:56
Post: #28
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
OK, that makes sense, thank you Tin.

1) Sonus Faber Amati Futura; Klimax Katalyst DSM; D’Agostino Momentum S250; Rega RP10 w/Aphelion & Linn Uphorik; Shunyata Denali, ICs, SCs & PCs
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2016-10-10, 14:07 (This post was last modified: 2016-10-10 16:04 by at021971.)
Post: #29
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
@Antonmb
That's not correct ROONs unique selling points are their Music Library and the User Experience and not a proprietary protocol like RAAT. They could offer Music Library and the User Experience based on any of the already available and standardized open protocols like UPnP, DLNA, OpenHome. But it seems that they simply do not want do that as they are following another agenda.

Thomas

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2016-10-10, 14:38
Post: #30
RE: Roon support for Linn DS
(2016-10-10 13:36)Antonmb Wrote:  I agree with and support Keith's call for open source, and while I'd like to see Roon on my KDSM, I can live without it if it compromises sound quality. However I don't see how it can happen: if you're a hardware manufacturer that makes software solely to make your hardware functional, and the hardware is your main source of revenue, then open source makes perfect sense - it lets others make things for your hardware, which makes your hardware more valuable. Roon, on the other hand, is a software company, and their software and licensing is their only source of revenue. Asking them to be open source is like asking Linn to show everyone how to make a KDS, isn't it? What am I missing?

I am not sure you are missing something per se but the relevant question would be - how does Roon think it will drive revenues and who is it that is paying.

If their model relies upon licensing the RAAT element of their software and service model; (Roon Advanced Audio Transport) then I suspect it is game over as you say. However if they can drive revenue from the license of content and the other software elements then making Raat open source might be the best possible way for them to grow their base as it would encourage integration. The former is a barrier, the latter an enticement.

I think it's a dilemma for Roon but if I was prioritising Linn development funding I would take the same stance Linn has TBH and as a customer TBH.
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