Linn Forums

Current time: 2018-01-20, 00:32 Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Linn Forums / Linn Music Systems & Hi-fi Separates / Network Music Players & Music Streamers v / Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion

Post Reply 
Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
2017-06-07, 16:59
Post: #21
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
(2017-06-06 21:26)mcgillroy Wrote:  Anybody point me to AirPlay 2 specs? Besides Flac are there any changes with regards to bitdepth, resolution, clock etc?!
Interested in that, too.
If Apple finally managed to stream more than 48 kHz I'd be interested to use Airplay on a few occasions...
(2017-06-07 16:20)timster Wrote:  Jukebox exported to PDF which you can print as a booklet. At least I managed it. Back then. When it hadn't been broken.
If we're poking Linn... please make the new improved Jukebox replacement run on Synology Wink

Yes please, seconded!

Music never sounded this good.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-07, 17:24 (This post was last modified: 2017-06-07 22:09 by Briain.)
Post: #22
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
Yes, the variety of NAS vendors could be a contentious issue, so I wonder if a Raspberry Pi version of Kinsky Dukebox would make more sense? I can see (well hope) Linn making Qnap builds, but as well as that requiring several versions (ARM, x86 and x86-64) there are other NAS vendors being used by Linn customers (like Synology, Thecus, Asustore, ReadyNAS and now Melco) so for the price of a Pi (about £30 plus a plugtop power supply; under £50 including a box for the Pi) it could then be available to absolutely everybody (in fact, if that would work well, then even Qnap builds could be relegated to just a 'nice to have' additional thing for the future; they could be parked in the long grass, as they say). Wink

Assuming that it's plausible, I'd suggest Linn engineers use the very basic Pi build (Raspbian and Pixel - which also installs RealVNC - and as little else as is absolutely necessary) then install Gedit and Kinsky Dukebox (and perhaps add a few tweaks, like cron jobs to apt-get update and install to automatically keep the Pi current at 03:00, for example) then make the entire build available as a downloadable blob from the Linn download site (so customers could easily flash it onto a card - the instructions for doing that could be very short and thus easy to follow - then they'd plug it into the Pi and populate bespoke settings, like NAS music share location and credentials, and off it should go); just another idea for the melting pot (assuming a networked Pi 3 would be suitable for such a system to run on, that is).

In fact, if the [mostly] pre-configured Pi build was on the Linn site, flashing it onto a card (and changing any user-specific settings) is also something that the Linn dealers could easily perform for their non-technical customers (for a small fee, of course) so assuming that is plausible, it could be quite a cool (and elegant) solution.

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-07, 21:15
Post: #23
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
Glad to have a few more forum members pressing Linn for the return of Jukebox. I am liking some your ideas Brian.

Bill.

ADSM2 | 2250 | K400 | Keilidhs
RasberryPI-B/HiFiberry DAC | Classik | Kans MkII
QNAP 212P | Minimserver
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-08, 07:29
Post: #24
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
Further to Bri's ideas. Perhaps Linn could make it a Jukebox-in-a-box, plug-and-play thingamajig that you just connect to the network. All you'd need to do is configure it to tell it where the music library is and it can then run as the server.
Trouble is - I tried something similar with Jukebox and my Synology, using my PC as the Jukebox server - and I couldn't for the life of me get it to read the music directory. http server and permissions and all that. And I'm not a complete technidiot. All I could do was get it to use the network drive on the PC. So it ended up routing the streams from NAS to PC to DS. Not good.

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-08, 11:52 (This post was last modified: 2017-06-08 13:08 by Briain.)
Post: #25
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
Oh that's interesting; I wonder what the road block was? I don't know anything about the architecture of Kinsky Dukebox and thus it's not possible for me to even speculate, but even assuming that there was some fundamental reason why it could only work with media on the same device, if there is an intention to totally re-design Kinsky Dukebox, then perhaps that road block could be cleared in the new version?

I can see how some might be attracted by a Linn box, but I can't see that happening (for the same reasons they didn't build a Linn NAS). As they are a low volume / high quality manufacturer, I'd expect that if they did make one, the price might make it rather unattractive, so that could be another reason not go go down that road. These days, you can - as stated before - get a R Pi going for about £50, and to me, that would be the ideal platform as it's cheap, it's low power (about 5 Watts, so about £5 per year to run) and should you wish, you can even install other useful things onto it (like UniFi server for Ubiquiti WAPs, as well as a whole bunch of other fun things) so it needn't even be limited to being just a Dukebox server. As it now comes bundled with RealVNC server, it makes it simple and convenient to access it (from another device); there's no longer any need to plug in a keyboard, mouse or screen.

If a Pi isn't up to the job (or Intel architecture makes it a far better user experience), you can now source fan-less Intel 4 core J1900 CPU based mini-PC devices from Alibaba for very low prices (the one on which I run Sophos UTM cost me about £150, and that included 4 GB RAM and a 128 GB SSD; it only consumes about 8 Watts, so it's still a viable 24/7 device), so I guess that if Linn were to build something, it'd make sense to source something like that, put a Debian build on it (including Dukebox) and distribute it via their dealer network, but that then means they'd also have to support it, so I'm not sure that they'd really want to go down that rutty road.

Of course, there are even cheaper versions based on the two-core J1800 Intel CPU (and you wouldn't need as much RAM or as big an SSD as I used, so the price could be reduced to something more like twice that of a R Pi) so though the Pi is an astonishingly good price, an Intel solution (with a proper SSD) is not not that expensive (and has a lot more grunt) so for some applications, I now prefer using these boxes than the R Pi.

If it was my decision, I'd make both a Debian dpkg installation package and a full R Pi image (with that package already installed) and some basic instructions, then I'd create a forum room such that folks like us could help others who might run into problems, as well as making dealers aware of the project, such that they could - if they wished to - offer a charged build and configuration service for folks who aren't forum participators (or are, but simply aren't interested in all the tinkering stuff).

Personally, I don't think that it's worth making Windows and Mac versions as most people with collections use a NAS to store them (so don't have a Windows or Mac running 24/7) but for the few that do hold their collections on a Windows or Mac box, the Pi (or equivalent Intel unit) could still be used to scan the music share, just is it would do with a NAS share, so that solution could also work well for these people.

To my thinking, the trouble with making installable packages for Windows, Mac, Linux and several species of Qnap devices is that escalates it into a load of work (and thus development cost) and it also makes it a potential support liability, so my concern is that if that is what they are considering and if the take-up predictions are quite low, that could kill the entire project. With a single build, it could be released as a long term unsupported beta (or even classed as an unsupported project) then as time permitted - and if interest justified it - other packages could be made and it could be re-classified into an official feature.

As to myself, I already have a Pi running 24/7, but I'd be happy to fork out for an Intel J1900 based box as I think it would be well worth the spend to get Kinsky Jukebox going. Okay, you could install Windows on the latter, but that just adds unnecessary cost for a Windows key (though if Windows really was the only solution, then so be it, I'd even stoop to the murky depths of buying and installing Windows 10 upon it). Tongue

Bri Smile

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-08, 16:02
Post: #26
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
(2017-06-08 11:52)Briain Wrote:  Oh that's interesting; I wonder what the road block was? I don't know anything about the architecture of Kinsky Dukebox and thus it's not possible for me to even speculate, but even assuming that there was some fundamental reason why it could only work with media on the same device, if there is an intention to totally re-design Kinsky Dukebox, then perhaps that road block could be cleared in the new version?

...

Bri Smile

From what I can recall, Jukebox on the DS required an "http server" to run on the host machine for it to request the stream from. I could never get that part to work on my Synology (all it ever did was say page not found or other errors when Jukebox tried to scan the directory). That may be old tech these days, so maybe the new "and better" jukebox will do it differently and, as you say, clear those particular roadblocks.
Here's hoping!

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-10, 14:17
Post: #27
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
Seems like Airplay 2 supports audio up to 48khz, not certain about max bitrate. At least that's the info that was given in the Airplay 2 session at their WWDC developer conference. We have to wait for further documentation for more insight.

Airplay 2 with multiroom support + the HomePod speaker means Apple goes after Sonos and to some extend B&Os lunch. They repeatedly stressed their focus on audio quality when designing the HomePod.

It's an active system consisting of 4 inch woofer with an array of seven tweeters combined with room-correction processing using the build in microphones. Two of these speakers can be linked for stereo-replay and I'd guess that these little things will sound exceptional at their $349.- pricepoint.

Full integration into Apple Music and a Siri natural language interface is a given. Sonos and B&O will have a hard time competing with this. As for Linn and other audiophile brands: I think Linn should support Airplay 2 just like they supported Airplay. It's just another protocol and Apple-users is where the value is.

Linn won't be able to compete with their interface, but that's ok. Outside of audiophile circles interacting with your music device via voice command will quickly become the norm.

Who'd guessed that the fight for the living room would be won by speakers and not by TVs and consoles!

http://www.last.fm/user/mcgillroy

MDSM/2 - 6100/D - active Kabers - Nubert 441w sub + Qobuz Sublime.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-06-10, 14:22
Post: #28
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
Isn't Linn's 'support' of Airplay simply a consequence of Airplay being an implementation of the UPnP protocol, rather than any specific Apple protocol?

Akurate EDSM | Majik ExaktBox-I [on Custom Design iRAPs] | Majik 140, REL T5
Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo [Linx1010]

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

Hello to Jason Isaacs
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-01, 02:33
Post: #29
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
Any one know the updates on when Airplay 2 is going to be available ( I read iOS 11.3) and, more importantly, where Linn is with integrating it?

Klimax DS/1, Klimax Twin, Akkurate 212s, Sizmik, Sneaky DS & Tukans (bedroom), Sneaky DS & AVI Neutrons (office)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-01, 06:17
Post: #30
RE: Apple Airplay2 - what do you think Linn? A discussion
I assume the advantage here is that you can stream directly from any app?

You can already stream anything you want from your device to your DS using bubbleds, I was doing it this morning with a podcast.

Given that device storage is very limited I also can't see this being useful for FLACs really.

Let's not forget that the vast majority of smartphone users don't use iOS either....

I imagine Linn's feeling here is meh.


(2017-06-06 15:54)levethan Wrote:  Not looking into starting a "war" but rather to stimulate some discussion.

At yesterdays WWD conference one of the new Apple announcements was the introduction of AirPlay2. The following is the opening list of partners already signed on - with more to follow:

Bang and Olufsen, Polk, Denon, Bowers and Wilkins, Definitive Technology, Devialet, Naim, and Bluesound

After the conference it was reported that developer beta versions of the upcoming OS11 now have the capability to stream full resolution FLAC files via the new Airplay2 protocol.

As a long time KDS user I am completely familiar with Linn's standing mantra of open source and not wanting to lock themselves into a closed proprietary system.

What I fear is Linn losing out on capturing the future generation of HiFi consumers. Lets face it - if one were to analyze the demographics of members of this forum, and I extrapolate that to also include Linn users in general, I believe that we all skew towards the "advanced" age of the spectrum.

As a Naim user of preamplificatioin/amplification I am witness to their move to try and capture the next generation of HiFi enthusiasts. Introductions of products such as the Muso, MusoQB, and the complete rollout of 4 new Uniti boxes attempt to cater to the next generation of users. Naim are already on board as an Airplay2 partner.

The next generation is already used to, and will grow further used to, user interface implementations such as promised by the upcoming Apple HomePod and its integration with Siri. They are already used to interfaces such as Tidal, Spotify and Pandora which, imho, are significantly more advanced than Kazoo.

I am suggesting that Linn may want to take these new developments into consideration. Entry level Majik DSM - why not have users be able to AirPlay2 content from their phone directly to it? Before someone says Songcast - no - it is simply not the same thing - nor what users will want to see. An abandonment of Kazoo and the partnering or introduction to something more contemporary and full featured such as users currently enjoy with Spotify, Apple Music etc?

My fear is that users of the streaming services, comfortable with the full functioning features their apps provide, will look at something like Kazoo, look at the inability to easily push content from their phone in an easy manner, and refuse to "step down" to what Linn is purveying.

Any comments (ducking for cover!)

PS - just stimulating conversation - and hoping that Linn stay around for the next generation of future Audiophiles

Black ash LP12 (with Akito 1, Adikt, Kore, Trampolin 2, Tranquility, silver T-kable and Lingo 2), AEDSM/1, Exaktbox 6, 2x 2250/D, all on Quadraspire Q4 Evo rack+wall shelf and Ninkas w/ polymer bases.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)