Linn Forums

Current time: 2017-12-14, 21:59 Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Linn Forums / Linn Music Systems & Hi-fi Separates / Network Music Players & Music Streamers v / A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises

Post Reply 
A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
2017-08-31, 05:59
Post: #11
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
I didn't expect to see an LP12, a KDSM and an Elise to be part of your experiment.
What spec is the LP12?

I'm just a bit worried about your grandchildren, will they still be getting something for Christmas or will granddad be looking at their toys jealously thinking "If I put those on Ebay I might be able to upgrade again.". Smile

And I'll just have to emulate patience I guess.

Tin can telephone system.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 07:39 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-31 07:40 by Gonzo.)
Post: #12
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
Well I was there and even I don't know what happened with the Melco because I had to shoot off to catch the ferry back from Yarmouth......which I almost missed by the way!!

KEDSM and Katalyst Exakt 350s. Sekrit DSi Kudos and Diskreets In Bedroom, 520 Exakt system in Garden room. Sekrit DSi and Tukans, Sneaky DS and Kef Eggs in storage.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 08:00
Post: #13
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
Looking forward to this suite of posts Smile

Main: AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AExaktbox10; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, AVSeKretan
www.audiophilemusings.co.uk
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 09:42 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-31 11:23 by nrwatson.)
Post: #14
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
This is torture David
Obviously enjoying the music so no time to write

Exakt 5.1
Klimax Exakt 350 Katalyst Melco N1Z anniversary Melodik sub Akurate 225 centre Akurate 4200 Akurate Exactbox 6 Akudorik Exakt Oppo UDP-205
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 10:10
Post: #15
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 09:42)nrwatson Wrote:  This is torture David
Obviously enjoying the music so no time to write xxx

+1Smile

LINN: LP12, EKOS 2, Krystal, Radikal, AEDSM, Akubarik Exakt, Karik III
POWER: MFE Power Conditioner NF-3, Goldkabel executive SuperCord Gold
NAS: Synology RS814 (8TB), Minimserver
SAT: VU+ Solo2 Twinreceiver HD
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 11:41
Post: #16
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
David
[/quote]
Great to see you again and pleased to be able to tweak the Space Opt + settings to greater effect. The speakers could of had more toe in but too many changes at once would of been over the top given amount of other kit demo'd and time. I too look forward to your creative writing skills in due course...

I have no idea when Kat for Akurate Exaktboxes will happen but will raise the question of KEDSM source first vs. different DAC at the backend. Akurate Exakt DSM is all you need?

Love your camera BTW.

www.hiddensystems.co.uk
www.facebook.com/hiddensystems
www.twitter.com/hiddensystems
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 14:24 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-31 14:35 by DavidHB.)
Post: #17
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
Time to stop the suspense game. All questions will be answered as the story unfolds. This post is, as promised, a summary of what happened on the day, so that readers can be clear about the sequence of events, which was masterminded by Chris of Hidden Systems and is, I think, significant.

One advantage of living on an island is that, if you know what ferry your guests are on, you also know pretty much when they arrive. Gonzo had said he would be here by 9, and here he was, with the pretty white Elise temporarily improving the kerb appeal of my property more than somewhat. Turbo too. 0-60 in 4 sec, says Gonzo. Not with me in it, says I.

Just time to get the jar of Sidamo out of the fridge and put on the kettle, and Chris is here too. He's in the little green VW, which means lots of gear to carry. At that point, my elder daughter calls, to wish me well for the day. I tell her that Chris is bringing a lot of boxes into the house. "I hope you've told him that he's taking them all home again", she replies. (Actually, the boxes did all go home with Chris, but that was the plan anyway.)

As always with Chris, his first order of business was to sit and listen for a while to the system as is. It had been on for the better part of an hour , so was well warmed up. He announces that there is "plenty that can be done". Is that good news because the day will not be in vain, or bad news because I have cloth ears and have been enjoying a system which, in Ofsted parlance, "needs improvement"? I guess that anyone who has had a visit from Paulssurround will have asked themselves the same question.

Chris's entirely predictable next step is to bring in the toolkit. Out comes the little torque screwdiver, to test and retorque as necessary all the fixing screws on the 3k arrays. My Akubariks had been demo models in Chris's showroom, and so were correctly torqued on delivery, but over the intervening 18 months some screws (in particular those at the 12 o'clock position) had loosened by a click of the screwdriver. Chris then turned his attention to the upper bass drivers, which received the same treatment. He has a very clever set of plastic (but sharply pointed) 'toothpicks' of the kind used for loosening car trim panels, to get the grilles off without damage.

I had wondered whether we might try some toe-in, but Chris felt, as you see from his post, that it would be unwise to change too much too soon, and suggested that the speakers were, for the present, best left where they had settled themselves on to the floor. So toe-in remains on the to-do list, some time in the future when the other changes have settled in. From this point on, the day is entirely concerned with things upstream of the Exaktbox 10.

So we were into the serious business of DSM settings and Space Optimisation. I had set up a laptop with a slave monitor in the adjacent room, to make working with Konfig straightforward. I had forgotten that Chris is a Mac monkey, so there was a certain amount of switching between Chris's Macbook and my HP. More significantly, when it came to trying out sub-woofers, the bug in the current beta that prevents you from adding a sub-woofer came to the fore. With Exakt, Konfig still recognises the Exaktbox Sub, and so allows you to add the sub itself, but does not allow you to enter the positioning data. We had to revert to the current release version of Davaar, which wasn't a problem as there was no change to the Exakt firmware (or the sound of the system, that we could detect).

The SO activity will be covered in the next post; it deserves a post of its own because the results are one of the three big surprises of the day. Next in the order of business was the Exaktbox Sub and two different subs that Chris had brought with him; the diminutive (but to my eyes ugly) Totem Kin and a borrowed Akurate 226 in maple. Again, this process deserves a post of its own. I had felt all along that, with the Akubariks already going as deep as they do (noticeably deeper than their 242 predecessors), it was an open question as to whether any sub that would fit into my small listening space would add value, so no result of the test was going to be a surprise.

I'm afraid that, with so much happening, the precise sequence of events is not as fixed in my mind as it should be; Chris and/or Gonzo may be able to correct me. Logically, however, the next piece of the game plan was to try KDSM (actually working as a KEDSM, so Katalyst is not relevant here) in place of my ADSM (which, in my system can be thought of as an AEDSM with a headphone output). This was Chris's idea, but it was intriguing. When Exakt first came out, Linn were a bit coy about the performance difference (if any) between the KEDSM and the AEDSM, and some folk here were very willing to play the "it's all digital so how can there be a difference" card. Others have been adamant that the KEDSM is much better, sound-wise, than the AEDSM in the same Exakt system. This comparison deserves yet another post to itself; in fact, I'm still struggling to come to terms with what I heard.

Come lunchtime, even though it was raining, Chris (wise man) took one look at the crowd in the pub next door, and expressed a strong preference for the hotel restaurant across the road, where he had been before and which (for not that much more money) has better food, a stunning view and a great atmosphere. The progress we had made by lunchtime allowed us to have a good and unhurried meal, which was all, I think, locally sourced. Thanks to Chris and Gonzo for insisting that it was their turn to pay Smile.

[Image: LP12%20%28small%29.jpg]

(Thanks to Chris for this photo.)

Next up, the kerb appeal of the Elise outside the house was complemented by temporarily replacing my Basik turntable with a (pretty much) Akurate spec LP12 - Klimax Radical, Kore, Ekos 1 with Krystal into Uphorik, to allow A/B comparison with the Basik). I was expecting this to be good, and I wasn't disappointed. It would be disrespectful not to give this comparison a post of its own as well.

As Gonzo says, he had to leave before the final experiment of the day - putting a Melco N1A/2 head to head against my diminutive QNAP TS-131. Folk here will know that I am interested in but leery of the Melco concept, and have been inclined to think that the usefulness or otherwise of the Melco (set against its cost and its limited usefulness as the NAS it does not pretend to be) is likely to vary from system to system. That opinion has not changed, but at least it is now better informed. Again, this will need to be explained in more detail.

By this point, it was time for Chris to pack up and leave to catch his ferry. I was left in a suddenly empty seeming house to listen at length to the changes made to my system, which I shall be doing for some time as I continue to write these posts.

[to be continued]

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 15:44 (This post was last modified: 2017-08-31 15:48 by Briain.)
Post: #18
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-30 21:12)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-08-30 21:04)BB1 Wrote:  I'm looking forward for your findings, especially towards your comparison between a KDSM and an ADSM in an Exakt setup. I've no doubt that a KDSM is significantly better than an ADSM for analogue sources, but I'm curious if a KEDSM is worth its price tag compared to an AEDSM.

Of all the things that I wanted to achieve today, that was probably the lowest priority for me. I should have known better. Chris knows as well as anyone about my bank account's antipathy to all things Klimax, and I'm sure he sees it as a challenge ... Smile

David

Hi

When a squad of us visited Linn last year, that very question came up and we compared the Exakt versions of the ADSM vs KDSM vs KDS (streaming FLAC files from a server) when driving Klimax Exaktboxes into a serious system. There were differences (which was interesting, in itself) and though it wasn't a demonstration pertinent to my own plans (so not that interesting to me) and I was sitting in the back corner of the rows of seats (so not ideal) I did notice that the KDS sounded better than the ADSM or KDSM. It was an interesting difference (and one that I hadn't expected) in that to me, vocals sounded more 'human' when the tune was played using the KDS (or to put it another way, the KDS feeding the Exakt system was the most musical of the three units) so if I were in the position to be buying a £100K system, I would certainly want the KDS as my source.

Of course, the trouble with that would be if - like me - you decided (perhaps later) that you also wanted to use the system for TV sound; with a KDS, you couldn't do so. My guess is that the KDS perhaps sounded best due to it not having all the HDMI stuff in the same box, so I can't help but wonder if the next version KDS should have a single S/PDIF input (i.e. a minimalist addition) such that folks who want the ultimate sound quality could also have the option to hook up their Sky box (or the likes) to their KDS based system and thus use the system for TV sound (that is exactly what I would wish to do).

It is important to note that the above thought is based on my assumption (AKA totally wild guess) that it is the presence of the HDMI board which led to the KDS sounding sightly better than the KDSM when streaming from a server (or perhaps it is also - in part - down to the layout inside the KDS contributing to some of that difference), and also on the wild assumption that adding an S/PDIF input to a future model of KDS would not equally (to that of an HDMI board) impact upon its sound quality when it is used for streaming music from a server. These are all wild guesses as I have absolutely no insider knowledge on what does and doesn't contribute to the small differences in musicality that I heard (nor on the potential impact of adding a hypothetical S/PDIF input stage to a KDS)!

Fascinating that there was any difference at all between the DS units when used with digital signals, but worth noting that there was a far more fundamental (and very significant) difference between Exaktbox 10, 2 x Exaktbox 6 (that was a surprisingly big jump, and according to Linn, all down to the better optimised internals layout) and 2 x Kliamax Exaktbox, so I would have no doubts in my head that an ADSM and 2 x Exaktbox 6 system would be significantly nicer than a KDSM and Exaktbox 10 system, and if I later wanted to upgrade that ADSM and 2 x Exaktbox 6 system, I'd first be looking at changing the Exaktbox 6 units to Klimax Exaktboxes rather than changing the DS and retaining the Exaktbox 6, and only then would I consider changing to the KDS (that providing the 'cherry on top', as they say).

Bri Smile

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
KDS Renew -> Homebrew fixed attenuator -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik front sub (bedroom)
MDSI -> 104C (awaiting installation in my kitchen)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 16:02
Post: #19
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 14:24)DavidHB Wrote:  Time to stop the suspense game. All questions will be answered as the story unfolds. This post is, as promised, a summary of what happened on the day, so that readers can be clear about the sequence of events, which was masterminded by Chris of Hidden Systems and is, I think, significant.

One advantage of living on an island is that, if you know what ferry your guests are on, you also know pretty much when they arrive. Gonzo had said he would be here by 9, and here he was, with the pretty white Elise temporarily improving the kerb appeal of my property more than somewhat. Turbo too. 0-60 in 4 sec, says Gonzo. Not with me in it, says I.

Just time to get the jar of Sidamo out of the fridge and put on the kettle, and Chris is here too. He's in the little green VW, which means lots of gear to carry. At that point, my elder daughter calls, to wish me well for the day. I tell her that Chris is bringing a lot of boxes into the house. "I hope you've told him that he's taking them all home again", she replies. (Actually, the boxes did all go home with Chris, but that was the plan anyway.)

As always with Chris, his first order of business was to sit and listen for a while to the system as is. It had been on for the better part of an hour , so was well warmed up. He announces that there is "plenty that can be done". Is that good news because the day will not be in vain, or bad news because I have cloth ears and have been enjoying a system which, in Ofsted parlance, "needs improvement"? I guess that anyone who has had a visit from Paulssurround will have asked themselves the same question.

Chris's entirely predictable next step is to bring in the toolkit. Out comes the little torque screwdiver, to test and retorque as necessary all the fixing screws on the 3k arrays. My Akubariks had been demo models in Chris's showroom, and so were correctly torqued on delivery, but over the intervening 18 months some screws (in particular those at the 12 o'clock position) had loosened by a click of the screwdriver. Chris then turned his attention to the upper bass drivers, which received the same treatment. He has a very clever set of plastic (but sharply pointed) 'toothpicks' of the kind used for loosening car trim panels, to get the grilles off without damage.

I had wondered whether we might try some toe-in, but Chris felt, as you see from his post, that it would be unwise to change too much too soon, and suggested that the speakers were, for the present, best left where they had settled themselves on to the floor. So toe-in remains on the to-do list, some time in the future when the other changes have settled in. From this point on, the day is entirely concerned with things upstream of the Exaktbox 10.

So we were into the serious business of DSM settings and Space Optimisation. I had set up a laptop with a slave monitor in the adjacent room, to make working with Konfig straightforward. I had forgotten that Chris is a Mac monkey, so there was a certain amount of switching between Chris's Macbook and my HP. More significantly, when it came to trying out sub-woofers, the bug in the current beta that prevents you from adding a sub-woofer came to the fore. With Exakt, Konfig still recognises the Exaktbox Sub, and so allows you to add the sub itself, but does not allow you to enter the positioning data. We had to revert to the current release version of Davaar, which wasn't a problem as there was no change to the Exakt firmware (or the sound of the system, that we could detect).

The SO activity will be covered in the next post; it deserves a post of its own because the results are one of the three big surprises of the day. Next in the order of business was the Exaktbox Sub and two different subs that Chris had brought with him; the diminutive (but to my eyes ugly) Totem Kin and a borrowed Akurate 226 in maple. Again, this process deserves a post of its own. I had felt all along that, with the Akubariks already going as deep as they do (noticeably deeper than their 242 predecessors), it was an open question as to whether any sub that would fit into my small listening space would add value, so no result of the test was going to be a surprise.

I'm afraid that, with so much happening, the precise sequence of events is not as fixed in my mind as it should be; Chris and/or Gonzo may be able to correct me. Logically, however, the next piece of the game plan was to try KDSM (actually working as a KEDSM, so Katalyst is not relevant here) in place of my ADSM (which, in my system can be thought of as an AEDSM with a headphone output). This was Chris's idea, but it was intriguing. When Exakt first came out, Linn were a bit coy about the performance difference (if any) between the KEDSM and the AEDSM, and some folk here were very willing to play the "it's all digital so how can there be a difference" card. Others have been adamant that the KEDSM is much better, sound-wise, than the AEDSM in the same Exakt system. This comparison deserves yet another post to itself; in fact, I'm still struggling to come to terms with what I heard.

Come lunchtime, even though it was raining, Chris (wise man) took one look at the crowd in the pub next door, and expressed a strong preference for the hotel restaurant across the road, where he had been before and which (for not that much more money) has better food, a stunning view and a great atmosphere. The progress we had made by lunchtime allowed us to have a good and unhurried meal, which was all, I think, locally sourced. Thanks to Chris and Gonzo for insisting that it was their turn to pay Smile.

[Image: LP12%20%28small%29.jpg]

(Thanks to Chris for this photo.)

Next up, the kerb appeal of the Elise outside the house was complemented by temporarily replacing my Basik turntable with a (pretty much) Akurate spec LP12 - Klimax Radical, Kore, Ekos 1 with Krystal into Uphorik, to allow A/B comparison with the Basik). I was expecting this to be good, and I wasn't disappointed. It would be disrespectful not to give this comparison a post of its own as well.

As Gonzo says, he had to leave before the final experiment of the day - putting a Melco N1A/2 head to head against my diminutive QNAP TS-131. Folk here will know that I am interested in but leery of the Melco concept, and have been inclined to think that the usefulness or otherwise of the Melco (set against its cost and its limited usefulness as the NAS it does not pretend to be) is likely to vary from system to system. That opinion has not changed, but at least it is now better informed. Again, this will need to be explained in more detail.

By this point, it was time for Chris to pack up and leave to catch his ferry. I was left in a suddenly empty seeming house to listen at length to the changes made to my system, which I shall be doing for some time as I continue to write these posts.

[to be continued]

David
Regarding the sequence of events bit, the first new bit of kit that was tried post SO adjustments, torquing etc. was to try the two subs in turn using the Exaktbox sub. We substituted the KDSM for the ADSM just before we went to lunch.

G

KEDSM and Katalyst Exakt 350s. Sekrit DSi Kudos and Diskreets In Bedroom, 520 Exakt system in Garden room. Sekrit DSi and Tukans, Sneaky DS and Kef Eggs in storage.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2017-08-31, 16:03
Post: #20
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
Thanks a lot for the interesting posts, David! Can't wait to read the continuations!

AEDSM, Akurate Exaktbox, 2*A4200/D, C2200/D, Akubariks
Majik DS-I, Katans
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)