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A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
2017-08-31, 16:22
Post: #21
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 15:44)Briain Wrote:  It is important to note that the above thought is based on my assumption (AKA totally wild guess) that it is the presence of the HDMI board which led to the KDS sounding sightly better than the KDSM when streaming from a server (or perhaps it is also - in part - down to the layout inside the KDS contributing to some of that difference), and also on the wild assumption that adding an S/PDIF input to a future model of KDS would not equally (to that of an HDMI board) impact upon its sound quality when it is used for streaming music from a server. These are all wild guesses as I have absolutely no insider knowledge on what does and doesn't contribute to the small differences in musicality that I heard (nor on the potential impact of adding a hypothetical S/PDIF input stage to a KDS)!

I don't suppose you know whether, at the demo, the HDMI in the DSM was disabled or not? This certainly makes a difference (in the ADSM as well), and Linn are clear on that point. HDMI has always been disabled on my ADSM, but, as the next instalment of my account will make clear, that is not the whole story.

(2017-08-31 15:44)Briain Wrote:  Fascinating that there was any difference at all between the DS units when used with digital signals, but worth noting that there was a far more fundamental (and very significant) difference between Exaktbox 10, 2 x Exaktbox 6 (that was a surprisingly big jump, and according to Linn, all down to the better optimised internals layout) and 2 x Kliamax Exaktbox, so I would have no doubts in my head that an ADSM and 2 x Exaktbox 6 system would be significantly nicer than a KDSM and Exaktbox 10 system, and if I later wanted to upgrade that ADSM and 2 x Exaktbox 6 system, I'd first be looking at changing the Exaktbox 6 units to Klimax Exaktboxes rather than changing the DS and retaining the Exaktbox 6, and only then would I consider changing to the KDS (that providing the 'cherry on top', as they say).

There are, I suspect, rather a lot of variables here. The variable that concerns me most is that the only way I could, say, go Katalyst at the moment is by replacing my Akurate Exaktbox 10 with two Klimax Exaktboxes. The most cursory glance at the Linn price list will tell you that I'd have to fork out, pretty much, the price of a family car to do this.

I have yet to discover for myself how much of a game changer Katalyst actually is. When, a year and a bit ago, I heard the pre-Katalyst KEboxes in comparison with the AEbox 10, my conclusion was that, while the former were significantly better than the latter, the performance improvement was not as great as moving from passive to Exakt at the Akurate level, and not sufficient to tempt me to swallow the price difference (which, even then, was about £15K). Would I make the same judgement now? No; I'm biding my time.

I'm betting that there will in due course be such a thing as a Katalyst Akurate Exaktbox 10. At that point the comparison that will really interest me is the one between the 10 channel box, two comparable 6 channel boxes (which ought, for the reasons you give, to be noticeably better) and the KEboxes. Yesterday's exercise has no bearing on this comparison. Rather, it addresses the issue as to whether, at a given level of Exakt provision (integrated speaker or Exaktbox), the performance of the KEDSM justifies its price differential over the AEDSM (Katalyst not being relevant in either case).

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-08-31, 16:29
Post: #22
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 16:02)Gonzo Wrote:  Regarding the sequence of events bit, the first new bit of kit that was tried post SO adjustments, torquing etc. was to try the two subs in turn using the Exaktbox sub. We substituted the KDSM for the ADSM just before we went to lunch.

Thanks, Gonzo. Indeed you are right, because I now recall that we hit the issue with the beta Konfig/Davaar before Chris pulled the KDSM out of the box. I shall adjust the sequence of my posts accordingly.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-08-31, 17:07
Post: #23
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
David, as always, I am ready to read fascinating stuff (yours). I am jealous you have such a skilled personnel around that help you and know how to improve things. And of course of your way of describing things, and not only because of English (obviosuly I am not native speaker). I also love the chapters constituting a book-like, a joy!

Please start with torquing... I bet my 3K have never been adjusted in several years(likely since they left Linn premises). How are we supposed to do this (sincerely and easily?).

Although I guess the plan if to discuss exakt, do not forget those of us with just aktiv akubariks. Any tips for us will be welcomed.

MI
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2017-08-31, 18:44
Post: #24
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 17:07)MetalloIL6 Wrote:  David, as always, I am ready to read fascinating stuff (yours). I am jealous you have such a skilled personnel around that help you and know how to improve things. And of course of your way of describing things, and not only because of English (obviosuly I am not native speaker). I also love the chapters constituting a book-like, a joy!

Thank you. I'm planning to do a 'chapter' each day. That will allow time for listening, and thought. The whole process has given me a lot to think about. I guess that Gonzo would say the same.

(2017-08-31 17:07)MetalloIL6 Wrote:  Please start with torquing... I bet my 3K have never been adjusted in several years(likely since they left Linn premises). How are we supposed to do this (sincerely and easily?).

The answer is that we aren't. If Linn publish the required torque settings, it's only for dealers. Also, Chris uses a torque screwdriver which, from my researches on the web, was probably not cheap.

Engineers like things to be under control, predictable and as specified. The story (how true I know not) goes that, in the old days, everything that came out of the Linn factory was screwed up 'Linn tight', which meant 'as tight as you can get it without breaking anything', and ideally 'so tight that a curious punter cannot get it undone'.

One day, so the story continues, some Linn speakers were consigned air freight to South America, and, after many hours in the cargo hold at minus forty degrees Celsius, all the fixing bolts snapped. So the engineers started using specified torque settings, which they do not vouchsafe to the likes of you and me. After all, it was an engineer friend who complained to me that , "Every time I make things foolproof, they go and invent a new fool".

(2017-08-31 17:07)MetalloIL6 Wrote:  Although I guess the plan if to discuss exakt, do not forget those of us with just Aktiv Akubariks. Any tips for us will be welcomed.

Sadly, my help in that department will be limited, as I have never even heard a pair of Aktiv Akubariks. The next instalment of the story, on Space Optimisation settings, should however be relevant to people with passive, Aktiv and Exakt systems.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-08-31, 19:37
Post: #25
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 15:44)Briain Wrote:  
(2017-08-30 21:12)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-08-30 21:04)BB1 Wrote:  I'm looking forward for your findings, especially towards your comparison between a KDSM and an ADSM in an Exakt setup. I've no doubt that a KDSM is significantly better than an ADSM for analogue sources, but I'm curious if a KEDSM is worth its price tag compared to an AEDSM.

Of all the things that I wanted to achieve today, that was probably the lowest priority for me. I should have known better. Chris knows as well as anyone about my bank account's antipathy to all things Klimax, and I'm sure he sees it as a challenge ... Smile

David

Hi

When a squad of us visited Linn last year, that very question came up and we compared the Exakt versions of the ADSM vs KDSM vs KDS (streaming FLAC files from a server) when driving Klimax Exaktboxes into a serious system. There were differences (which was interesting, in itself) and though it wasn't a demonstration pertinent to my own plans (so not that interesting to me) and I was sitting in the back corner of the rows of seats (so not ideal) I did notice that the KDS sounded better than the ADSM or KDSM. It was an interesting difference (and one that I hadn't expected) in that to me, vocals sounded more 'human' when the tune was played using the KDS (or to put it another way, the KDS feeding the Exakt system was the most musical of the three units) so if I were in the position to be buying a £100K system, I would certainly want the KDS as my source.

Of course, the trouble with that would be if - like me - you decided (perhaps later) that you also wanted to use the system for TV sound; with a KDS, you couldn't do so. My guess is that the KDS perhaps sounded best due to it not having all the HDMI stuff in the same box, so I can't help but wonder if the next version KDS should have a single S/PDIF input (i.e. a minimalist addition) such that folks who want the ultimate sound quality could also have the option to hook up their Sky box (or the likes) to their KDS based system and thus use the system for TV sound (that is exactly what I would wish to do).

It is important to note that the above thought is based on my assumption (AKA totally wild guess) that it is the presence of the HDMI board which led to the KDS sounding sightly better than the KDSM when streaming from a server (or perhaps it is also - in part - down to the layout inside the KDS contributing to some of that difference), and also on the wild assumption that adding an S/PDIF input to a future model of KDS would not equally (to that of an HDMI board) impact upon its sound quality when it is used for streaming music from a server. These are all wild guesses as I have absolutely no insider knowledge on what does and doesn't contribute to the small differences in musicality that I heard (nor on the potential impact of adding a hypothetical S/PDIF input stage to a KDS)!

Fascinating that there was any difference at all between the DS units when used with digital signals, but worth noting that there was a far more fundamental (and very significant) difference between Exaktbox 10, 2 x Exaktbox 6 (that was a surprisingly big jump, and according to Linn, all down to the better optimised internals layout) and 2 x Kliamax Exaktbox, so I would have no doubts in my head that an ADSM and 2 x Exaktbox 6 system would be significantly nicer than a KDSM and Exaktbox 10 system, and if I later wanted to upgrade that ADSM and 2 x Exaktbox 6 system, I'd first be looking at changing the Exaktbox 6 units to Klimax Exaktboxes rather than changing the DS and retaining the Exaktbox 6, and only then would I consider changing to the KDS (that providing the 'cherry on top', as they say).

Bri Smile

Thanks for sharing your wild guesses and experience. One may conclude that a hypothetical KEDS (i.e. a KDS without the analogue output circuitry) would be the best sounding 'source' in an Exakt system. I'd buy it, if it ever becomes available.

@DavidHB
I’m looking forward to your upcoming posts.

AEDSM > KEB/1 x 2 > Linn Silvers > A4200/1 x 2 > K200 > MISOs
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2017-08-31, 19:49
Post: #26
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
Hi David,

I was at the same demo as Briain and the most impressive upgrade, in terms of value for money, was the change from an Ebox 10 to 2 x Ebox 6s.

So much so that I've just done the change in my own system.

I would try to get a listen to this before setting your stall out for Klimax Exaktboxes.

Are they as good as 2 Klimax Exaktboxes? No, but they are very, very good and an awful lot cheaper! Smile

Klimax EDSM \2 x Akurate Exaktbox 6 \ 2 x Akurate 4200/1 \ KCT/D \ Akubariks

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2017-08-31, 20:33
Post: #27
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 19:49)CJS Wrote:  ... the most impressive upgrade, in terms of value for money, was the change from an Ebox 10 to 2 x Ebox 6s ...I would try to get a listen to this before setting your stall out for Klimax Exaktboxes ... Are they as good as 2 Klimax Exaktboxes? No, but they are very, very good and an awful lot cheaper! Smile

I don't really see myself ever buying Klimax Exaktboxes, given the price differential. And, if my guesses are correct, the time to move to 2 x Akurate Exaktbox 6 (which itself would be a big step for me) would be when the situation with Katalyst upgrades is clearer. Obviously I should like to know, if possible, how the different options compare at that point.

It could be that, even though it is not the best performing option, just upgrading my Exaktbox 10 (assuming such an upgrade is on offer) would be the most cost-effective thing to do. I know, from the performance of my present system, that I could very likely live with the result.

However, as I said to Briain, all that still leaves the interesting question as to how the KEDSM compares to the AEDSM as the front end to an Akurate Exakt System ...

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-08-31, 21:23
Post: #28
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 17:07)MetalloIL6 Wrote:  David, as always, I am ready to read fascinating stuff (yours). I am jealous you have such a skilled personnel around that help you and know how to improve things. And of course of your way of describing things, and not only because of English (obviosuly I am not native speaker). I also love the chapters constituting a book-like, a joy!

Please start with torquing... I bet my 3K have never been adjusted in several years(likely since they left Linn premises). How are we supposed to do this (sincerely and easily?).

Although I guess the plan if to discuss exakt, do not forget those of us with just aktiv akubariks. Any tips for us will be welcomed.

MI

The torque of bolts on car cylinders is a must and in the old days you had to have it retorqued when run in but that's all history and not revelvant now I guess. The theory of Linn tight was probably formed too much info, if they said adjust to x then they'd be responsible for dealers torque screwdrivers and reading the small print ie. lb/ft instead of NM.

I was initially stunned how torque can effect tonearm and cartridge sound likewise printed board torque but let's not go there.

It has been suggested 1nm to 1.5nm on 3k's somewhere on here or on Google University but personally stay light and use your ears, try and let a dealer fiddle. Not all tweeter units like this amount and half would be plenty but you mustn't let your screw tightness spoil your Just Listen time.

The DavidHB units were HDMI Disabled. Lastly I'll take a bigger car next time to squeeze in Katalyst Klimax Exaktboxes but that's not my style is it. I will never write as well as David by the way.

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2017-08-31, 22:08
Post: #29
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
David & Chris,

Ok then, no torquing by myself unless the bolt is found spinning!

Looking forward to next chapters,

MI
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2017-09-01, 07:04
Post: #30
RE: A wet Wednesday with plenty of surprises
(2017-08-31 22:08)MetalloIL6 Wrote:  David & Chris,

Ok then, no torquing by myself unless the bolt is found spinning!

Looking forward to next chapters,

MI
And if you do, 1Nm is really almost nothing.

I have been looking for a torquewrench a year ago, but most normal ones only start at 10Nm and have a uncertaintity of one or 2Nm.
So, 'unless spinning' is exactly what I am doing too, if you go past 'gently' you'll be using way too much force.

Just as an example: if you are about 80kg and would do a single pushup, you will be moving about 50kg = 500N over 50cm = 0.5m, so that is 250Nm.
So you need to apply 1/250 of force compared to what a human can do without to much practise. 1Nm is really not much.

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