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Minimum Optimal Volume
2017-09-07, 00:15
Post: #11
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
Query for Briain off topic. Intrigued you have both KDS (music) and ADSM (AV). Do you ever play music through the ADSM? Is there less music, or anything missing with ADSM? Struggling financially whether to attempt Klimax level source. Seems each new iteration of akurate DS(M) beats previous iteration klimax DS(M), which would make katalyst Akurate DSM pretty awesome if/when it becomes available. Also intrigued if DS still considered superior equivalent DSM for music. The price difference will buy plenty of bubbles to appease the better half, have a holiday or just retire. Guidance please (NB. my system is passive).

PC (as NAS, Linn Server, Kazoo) - MS Surface control - KDS3(Kat) - MF8500s - Focal 1028be
2nd bedroom as before + range extender - ADSM/1 - headphones, considering kat in due course
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2017-09-07, 01:07 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-07 01:18 by DavidHB.)
Post: #12
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
(2017-09-07 00:15)Richard Hart Wrote:  Query for Briain off topic. Intrigued you have both KDS (music) and ADSM (AV). Do you ever play music through the ADSM? Is there less music, or anything missing with ADSM? Struggling financially whether to attempt Klimax level source. Seems each new iteration of akurate DS(M) beats previous iteration klimax DS(M), which would make katalyst Akurate DSM pretty awesome if/when it becomes available. Also intrigued if DS still considered superior equivalent DSM for music. The price difference will buy plenty of bubbles to appease the better half, have a holiday or just retire. Guidance please (NB. my system is passive).

In general, only your ears will tell you whether the KDS or KDSM justifies the (for most people) eye-watering price differential over the corresponding Akurate models. While I have never compared my ADSM with a previous generation KDSM, I can say both that the ADSM is a very capable unit, and that, whenever I have been given the opportunity to compare a piece of Klimax kit with its Akurate counterpart, there has been no doubt about the superiority of the former, but there has been doubt about the need for, and cost-effectiveness of, that difference in performance. Which is why the choice has to be an individual decision.

I suppose one can say in general terms that the ADSM is the more practical buy (better price/performance ratio, more facilities), while the KDSM is the object of desire. I have had my ADSM for four years, upgrading it from the /0 to the /1 standard about half way through that period. I have used it pretty much every day during that time, so by now it doesn't owe me a great deal. For the last year, it has been doing duty, in effect, as an AEDSM following my upgrade to Exakt, but that is part of its flexibility. And of course, in the real world, it doesn't have a KDSM sitting alongside it for comparison every time it is used. I am very comfortable with the sound of my system, but that does not stop me from seeking yet further improvement ...

The fly in the ointment is, of course, Katalyst. I haven't had an opportunity to hear it yet, but am prepared to take on trust the pretty much universal opinion hereabouts that Katalyst is a game changer. I think it is almost inevitable that there will be a Katalyst ADSM in the reasonably near future. That makes the current ADSM a bit of a questionable buy just now.

Six months ago, I would have questioned whether a financial struggle to buy Klimax rather than Akurate was worthwhile for most people. At the moment, I think that it's a choice between taking the deep breath and going for a Klimax device now and waiting for the new Akurate model. If you really cannot wait, and you go with your head such that Klimax is unaffordable or just not cost-effective for you, I would try to source a second hand ADSM, which may, if you are lucky, be upgradeable to Katalyst standard at a later date.

David

Main system: [LP12* > Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10/1 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks.
*LP12: 1987 fluted plinth; Cirkus; Lingo 4; Trampolin; Kore; Basik Plus arm; K5 cartridge, Paratrace stylus.

Second system: Kiko.
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2017-09-07, 06:20 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-07 06:22 by Tin.)
Post: #13
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
(2017-09-07 00:15)Richard Hart Wrote:  Query for Briain off topic. Intrigued you have both KDS (music) and ADSM (AV). Do you ever play music through the ADSM? Is there less music, or anything missing with ADSM? Struggling financially whether to attempt Klimax level source. Seems each new iteration of akurate DS(M) beats previous iteration klimax DS(M), which would make katalyst Akurate DSM pretty awesome if/when it becomes available. Also intrigued if DS still considered superior equivalent DSM for music. The price difference will buy plenty of bubbles to appease the better half, have a holiday or just retire. Guidance please (NB. my system is passive).
I think it is safer to say that in general there a two generations between Klimax and Akurate, although they won't sound the same. But with Katalyst that might be different, but we'll have to wait and see.
As we just found out that the Katalyst Akurate integrated speakers have half the amount of DACs as their Klimax brethren. I usually suck at AB tests, but back in the day I was able to distinguish a single vs 2 DAC CD player, all other things being equal. So there will still be a noticable difference between equal generations.

So the shootout between a KDS/2 and Katalyst ADSM might have a win some/lose some result.
But if you forget about Katalyst, I once read that Klimax owners get the best and Akurate owners get the best price/quality. I always look for the latter even if I can afford the best, it just fits my personality better.
You'll have to figure out what fits yours.
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2017-09-07, 07:30
Post: #14
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
Thanks for all the answers and interesting explanations. I did initially wonder whether higher rated amplification (ie. Akurate over Majik) would lessen the discrepancy. Maybe a little bit. I do wonder though, if we have a figure of 38 for the Katalyst's DVC, do we have one for the rest? 55 does seem high, so I presume it's a bit of this, a bit of that, and a bit of the other.
Perhaps the best thing to do for low level listening would be headphones Smile
I remember the old loudness button. Maybe an auto-loudness compensator for volumes below the lossless level...

♫ ♫ Akurate EDSM | AEBox10 [on Custom Design iRAPs] | M6100+2100 | Majik 140 [on alu stands] | REL T5
♫ ♫ Rega RP1, [QNAP HS-251+, Jitterbug, MinimServer, Asset], Kazoo

AV: Marantz NR1506 | B&W 620(C), M1(S), REL T5 (LFE) | Fronts powered by Linn
Net: NetGear DGN2200 | GS108 | AQ Forest x3

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2017-09-08, 12:04 (This post was last modified: 2017-09-08 14:59 by Briain.)
Post: #15
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
(2017-09-07 00:15)Richard Hart Wrote:  Query for Briain off topic. Intrigued you have both KDS (music) and ADSM (AV). Do you ever play music through the ADSM? Is there less music, or anything missing with ADSM? Struggling financially whether to attempt Klimax level source. Seems each new iteration of akurate DS(M) beats previous iteration klimax DS(M), which would make katalyst Akurate DSM pretty awesome if/when it becomes available. Also intrigued if DS still considered superior equivalent DSM for music. The price difference will buy plenty of bubbles to appease the better half, have a holiday or just retire. Guidance please (NB. my system is passive).

Hi Richard

The story behind it is that in my last house, I had the KDS, KK and 350A system in my lounge and in the TV room, I had a MDSI, 2250, 212 and a 345 sub (which sounded awesome). When I moved, I had one large lounge, so then I had the TV between the 350A and whilst using the KDS for music, I used the MDSI (into another of the KK inputs) as a DAC for my Sky+ box (it was more complex than that; I had several HDMI+Toslink products routed into an HDMI+Toslink switch, then the Toslink output of that fed into the MDSI's Toslink input whereby the switches HDMI fed into the TV).

I had used that for about a year, then one day, a friend (who also owns an MDSI) visited me and insisted on hearing a streamed tune played onto the MDSI (feeding into the KK) vs the KDS (feeding into the KK) and the difference was quite large, and indeed very interesting (he actually asked if I had 'fiddled' the demonstration). I wrote about it before, but for a good example, when playing 'Moby - We Are All Made of Stars' the MDSI performed very well with 'simple' material (at the start of the tune) but when the percussion really got going, some of the percussion was lost in the overall cacophony (so some elements of the tune were effectively completely missing).

I wasn't sure if this really mattered for TV sound, but not too long after that finding, I bought an ADSM to effectively use as my AV DAC (with it set on fixed output and feeding into the KK's balanced input). Not long after installing it, I did again compare that Moby tune and like with the KDS, when the percussion really got going you could still hear the subtle sub-rhythms that made up the overall tune. The KDS/1 does sound sweeter on vocals and it does also sound more musical. In fact, a while back I wrote a post about me comparing a KDS/0 Renew to an ADS/1 (at another forum member's house; link to post at end) and that post explains how when consciously comparing the two products, it can be quite difficult to decide which is best (both had their merits), but after being distracted from that 'assessment mode', it very was clear to me that the KDS/0 Renew was far more musical (in that it sounded more like a live band).

When I did the comparison between my ADSM and KDS/1 feeding the KK (so unlike that KDS/0 Renew vs ADSM/1, I was using both on fixed output, rather than with DVC enabled) and I just had a brief listen to find out if there were any 'technical' differences - could I hear everything on that Moby track - as opposed to musical ones, but from that older comparison, I would expect that a longer session of enjoying tunes would have revealed far bigger musical differences (though I never got round to doing that).

So, at the end of the day, it really is a demonstration that you'd have to do for yourself and then assess whether the musical difference is a huge issue (and personally, I'd argue that it is; I do like my tunes) or whether that with the 'technical' differences being small (as in that you can still actually hear everything on both products) you are happy with the Akurate (which is an astonishingly good sounding device). If an ADSM Katalyst update is offered, I might consider doing that as the ADSM is used every evening for TV sound. If I do that, it will be interesting to then compare it to the KDS/1.

Old post about ADS/1 vs KDS/0 Renew: https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=13976&pid=158802#pid158802

Bri Smile

KDS/1 (music) + ADSM/3 (AV) -> KK/1 -> 350A + miniDSP time & phase aligned 345 rear sub
ADSM (@ Linn for /3) -> 2250/D -> 212 and Sizmik sub (bedroom)
Sneaky DS -> Roomamp -> 104C (awaiting installation in kitchen; home-brew 'floor sub' yet to be designed)
MDSI -> Shahinian Arc (installed at my mum's house)
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2017-09-08, 13:14
Post: #16
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
I tried having this discussion about listing volumes with my wife the other day. She said 'ITS A BIT LOUD' I replied 'ABOUT 7 O'OCLOCK' ?

LP12, Keel, Urika, Radikal, Ekos, Krystal, KRDSM/2, Bryston4B cube, Briks
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2017-09-09, 07:40
Post: #17
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
Smile I almost recognice that. But the spontaneous dance moves from the better half are more frequent with higher volume. /HB
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2017-09-10, 17:24
Post: #18
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
(2017-09-06 18:16)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-09-06 17:26)HansBertil Wrote:  I suppose the Output Attenuation does not make sense in an Exakt system.

Rather than not making sense, it's just not there. The attenuation happens in the analogue domain, and in an Exakt system would have to be in or downstream of the Exaktbox or Exakt module, and would have to be applied to all the channels in use - not really a feasible proposition, I guess.

David

It would be possible to put attenuators between the outputs of an Exaktbox and the input of the amplifiers - one per interconnect.

Not possible in integrated Exakt speakers of course.

Main: N1ZH, AK/0/D; AEDSM; MeiCord AEBox/1; Silvers 2x A4200/1; K400 NSL Exakt dual-mono PMC Twenty.26; Twenty.C; Blacks AV5125 PMC Twenty.21
Playroom: SBT; V-DAC1; Cyrus6; M773e
Garage: SBT/Rega DAC; Arcam AVR100; 2x AV5125; Aktiv Ninkas, Trikan, SeKretan
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2017-09-10, 22:41
Post: #19
RE: Minimum Optimal Volume
(2017-09-10 17:24)sunbeamgls Wrote:  
(2017-09-06 18:16)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-09-06 17:26)HansBertil Wrote:  I suppose the Output Attenuation does not make sense in an Exakt system.

Rather than not making sense, it's just not there. The attenuation happens in the analogue domain, and in an Exakt system would have to be in or downstream of the Exaktbox or Exakt module, and would have to be applied to all the channels in use - not really a feasible proposition, I guess.

David

It would be possible to put attenuators between the outputs of an Exaktbox and the input of the amplifiers - one per interconnect.

Not possible in integrated Exakt speakers of course.

Yes, but Exakt being pretty, well, Exakt, I suspect you could really mess up the result if the attenuators weren't all exactly the same attenuation?

ADs/2 -> Klimax Exaktbox/1 -> Silvers -> 2xKCT/D -> K200 -> Ninka
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