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Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
2017-12-01, 14:04
Post: #21
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
To be honesty couldn't give a monkeys all I want is music I can enjoy
its my KDS I often fine the cd rips sound better than the hires files

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2017-12-01, 14:10
Post: #22
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
My thanks to rockfather also.

Given that the software is beta, the fact that the release notes are less than complete is understandable. But I hope that all the limitations will be fully documented both in the release notes and in published specifications. Some of the limitations (notably no DSD on Exakt and no SO with DSD) ought in fact to find their way on to the 'front of house' web pages; otherwise, the statement that "it plays DSD" might be regarded as misleading.

As MinimServer/MinimStreamer supports transcoding (via FFMPEG) of .dff and .dsf files to native PCM (and so allowing both streaming via Exakt and the use of SO/SO+), no doubt we shall be seeing some interesting sound quality comparisons between transcoding and native playback. But I agree with Sunbeam that conversion or transcoding will be the best options for most people. I suspect that adding the DSD native playback capability will serve more to tick reviewers' boxes than any practical purpose for all but a small minority of users.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
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2017-12-01, 14:14
Post: #23
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 13:49)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Still best just to convert DSD to WAV and enjoy a Linn systems properly then.
It’s certainly true for default mode of DSD conversion in Katalyst DAC (AK4497). But I believe it is not true for the mode “Volume bypass” .

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2017-12-01, 14:34
Post: #24
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 14:14)Mihaylov Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 13:49)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Still best just to convert DSD to WAV and enjoy a Linn systems properly then.
It’s certainly true for default mode of DSD conversion in Katalyst DAC (AK4497). But I believe it is not true for the mode “Volume bypass” .
You don't use SO? Try it, it has been the biggest upgrade in my system so far.

The theoretical differences between PCM and DSD are very irrelevant compared to the massive impact that SO makes.

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2017-12-01, 14:55 (This post was last modified: 2017-12-01 14:59 by murrays.)
Post: #25
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 13:57)Mihaylov Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 10:27)rockfather Wrote:  Let me clarify some of the points mentioned
[list]
[*]Playback is native DSD direct to analog, performed by the Katalyst DAC
This is the default mode (“Normal path”) as showed in blue circle :

That’s right?

Correct. DSD data is sent losslessly to the AK4497. The AK4497 then filters (averages) the DSD stream to remove some of the out-of-band noise, apples the required volume attenuation, and re-modulates at 512Fs/6-bits.

The AK4497 (like most multi-bit sigma-delta DACs) has no 'true' DSD mode as it always applies an averaging filter, and it always performs the conversion to analog with a 6-bit DAC. We found no measurable difference in the output spectrum, and no detectable difference in audio quality between the two DSD paths.

(2017-12-01 13:49)sunbeamgls Wrote:  Still best just to convert DSD to WAV and enjoy a Linn systems properly then.

Quite. Anything else would be a terrible idea Big Grin
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2017-12-01, 15:02
Post: #26
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 14:55)murrays Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 13:57)Mihaylov Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 10:27)rockfather Wrote:  Let me clarify some of the points mentioned
[list]
[*]Playback is native DSD direct to analog, performed by the Katalyst DAC
This is the default mode (“Normal path”) as showed in blue circle :

That’s right?

Correct. DSD data is sent losslessly to the AK4497. The AK4497 then filters (averages) the DSD stream to remove some of the out-of-band noise, apples the required volume attenuation, and re-modulates at 512Fs/6-bits.

The AK4497 (like most multi-bit sigma-delta DACs) has no 'true' DSD mode as it always applies an averaging filter, and it always performs the conversion to analog with a 6-bit DAC. We found no measurable difference in the output spectrum, and no detectable difference in audio quality between the two DSD paths.
The old Wolfson DAC also has a DSD mode and yet Linn had their famous 'DSD is dead'
phrase.
As DSD and SO are imcompatible with, as far as I can tell, hardware limitations, why suddenly revive DSD?
It'll only make people angry who think they need DSD together with Exakt and SO. I mean, you can really wait for this to happen, look at the MQA/ROON threads.
Some things are better of when keeping them buried, and IMHO (and 2 cents worth) DSD would have been one of those things.

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2017-12-01, 16:21
Post: #27
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 15:02)Tin Wrote:  The old Wolfson DAC also has a DSD mode and yet Linn had their famous 'DSD is dead'
phrase.
As DSD and SO are imcompatible with, as far as I can tell, hardware limitations, why suddenly revive DSD?
It'll only make people angry who think they need DSD together with Exakt and SO. I mean, you can really wait for this to happen, look at the MQA/ROON threads.
Some things are better of when keeping them buried, and IMHO (and 2 cents worth) DSD would have been one of those things.

Yes, the Wolfson DAC had a DSD mode, but none of the early DS/DSM implementations had the hardware connections necessary to make use of it (We were very much focused on optimising PCM playback at the time).

In an ideal world, DSD would have gone away, but the reality is that it has gained some traction in some markets, so when we designed the Katalyst DAC platform we made sure it was at least capable of playing DSD.

We have tried to support DSD in as transparent a way as possible (that is it's 'raison d'etre' after all), but the inevitable consequence of this is that DSP processes such as Space and Exakt cannot be supported. So, while we still recommend that customers convert DSD to PCM in order to benefit from Space and Exakt, we also recognise that some customers are willing to forgo these benefits in order to play DSD natively.

I don't think anyone will be upset that we now support DSD subject to the limitations imposed by the very nature of DSD.
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2017-12-01, 16:41
Post: #28
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 16:21)murrays Wrote:  I don't think anyone will be upset that we now support DSD subject to the limitations imposed by the very nature of DSD.
Are you prepared to place a bet on that? Smile

Besides, you could pass DSD through the whole chain and insert it back into the ADC. I mean, if passing an analogue signal through an ADC is good enough for vinyl, why wouldn't it be for DSD?
Regurgitation is a totally normal natural process, no need to be shy about it. Big Grin

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2017-12-01, 16:55
Post: #29
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 16:41)Tin Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 16:21)murrays Wrote:  I don't think anyone will be upset that we now support DSD subject to the limitations imposed by the very nature of DSD.
Are you prepared to place a bet on that? Smile

Perhaps Marray should have said "... anyone could reasonably be upset ..." if that is what he meant, I agree with him.

More generally, I think that any reasonable person can respect the still principled but pragmatic stance Linn is taking on the issue.

David

Main system: [Basik/Basik+/K5/Lejonklou Gaio >][Roksan Kandy Mk III >] KEDSM > Akurate Exaktbox 10 > Linn Silvers> A4200 x 2 and A2200 > K600 > Akubariks
Second system: Kiko
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2017-12-01, 17:00
Post: #30
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 16:41)Tin Wrote:  Besides, you could pass DSD through the whole chain and insert it back into the ADC. I mean, if passing an analogue signal through an ADC is good enough for vinyl, why wouldn't it be for DSD?
Regurgitation is a totally normal natural process, no need to be shy about it. Big Grin
Hmmm, I'l have to ruminate on that one Big Grin
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