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Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
2017-12-01, 17:21 (This post was last modified: 2017-12-01 17:23 by Tin.)
Post: #31
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 16:55)DavidHB Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 16:41)Tin Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 16:21)murrays Wrote:  I don't think anyone will be upset that we now support DSD subject to the limitations imposed by the very nature of DSD.
Are you prepared to place a bet on that? Smile

Perhaps Marray should have said "... anyone could reasonably be upset ..." if that is what he meant, I agree with him.

More generally, I think that any reasonable person can respect the still principled but pragmatic stance Linn is taking on the issue.

David
No no no no, you're inserting a pair of 'reasonables' in there that have no meaningful interpretation in the real world.

(2017-12-01 17:00)murrays Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 16:41)Tin Wrote:  Besides, you could pass DSD through the whole chain and insert it back into the ADC. I mean, if passing an analogue signal through an ADC is good enough for vinyl, why wouldn't it be for DSD?
Regurgitation is a totally normal natural process, no need to be shy about it. Big Grin
Hmmm, I'l have to ruminate on that one Big Grin
Mental regurgitation? How does that even work? Smile

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2017-12-01, 17:42 (This post was last modified: 2017-12-01 17:43 by Mihaylov.)
Post: #32
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 14:55)murrays Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 13:57)Mihaylov Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 10:27)rockfather Wrote:  Let me clarify some of the points mentioned
[list]
[*]Playback is native DSD direct to analog, performed by the Katalyst DAC
This is the default mode (“Normal path”) as showed in blue circle :

That’s right?

Correct. DSD data is sent losslessly to the AK4497. The AK4497 then filters (averages) the DSD stream to remove some of the out-of-band noise, apples the required volume attenuation, and re-modulates at 512Fs/6-bits.

The AK4497 (like most multi-bit sigma-delta DACs) has no 'true' DSD mode as it always applies an averaging filter, and it always performs the conversion to analog with a 6-bit DAC. We found no measurable difference in the output spectrum, and no detectable difference in audio quality between the two DSD paths.

OK. Then why does AK offer two ways for DSD conversion?
And do you find “measurable difference in the output spectrum and detectable difference in audio quality” between the Nordost odin power cable (for example) and standard Linn DS power cable ?

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2017-12-01, 18:00 (This post was last modified: 2017-12-01 18:02 by Keith Robertson.)
Post: #33
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
I thought it might be useful to explain our reasoning process with regards to what formats we support in the DS.

Linn believes unnecessary format proliferation is detrimental to wider adoption of Studio Master music. We do not believe that DSD provides any audio benefit compared to PCM. Further, it innately prevents the use of DSP.

However, despite these downsides, we also strongly believe that the DS should support all formats that are both open and widely used.

Whilst DSD is relatively uncommon in the UK and Europe, its has become more prevalent in other markets.

Because of this, we designed the Katalyst DAC architecture to ensure it could support DSD. To properly support DSD, there were also significant software changes required in the audio pipeline.

We have recently completed these changes and expect them to be available in a software update in December. They will allow support for DSD in all Katalyst based Klimax DS and Klimax DSM.

To be clear, we are not endorsing or encouraging the use of DSD. However, given the prevalence of DSD music in certain markets has increased, we recognise the importance of Linn owners being able to easily play DSD files at the best quality and feature set allowed for by that format.
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2017-12-01, 18:01
Post: #34
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 17:42)Mihaylov Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 14:55)murrays Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 13:57)Mihaylov Wrote:  
(2017-12-01 10:27)rockfather Wrote:  Let me clarify some of the points mentioned
[list]
[*]Playback is native DSD direct to analog, performed by the Katalyst DAC
This is the default mode (“Normal path”) as showed in blue circle :

That’s right?

Correct. DSD data is sent losslessly to the AK4497. The AK4497 then filters (averages) the DSD stream to remove some of the out-of-band noise, apples the required volume attenuation, and re-modulates at 512Fs/6-bits.

The AK4497 (like most multi-bit sigma-delta DACs) has no 'true' DSD mode as it always applies an averaging filter, and it always performs the conversion to analog with a 6-bit DAC. We found no measurable difference in the output spectrum, and no detectable difference in audio quality between the two DSD paths.

OK. Then why does AK offer two ways for DSD conversion?

I don't know, but the observed analog outputs are indistinguishable with the volume attenuation set to 0dB.

Quote:And do you find “measurable difference in the output spectrum and detectable difference in audio quality” between the Nordost odin power cable (for example) and standard Linn DS power cable ?

I have neither listened to, nor measured, a Nordost odin power cable, so I can't comment.
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2017-12-01, 18:06
Post: #35
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 18:00)Keith Robertson Wrote:  I thought it might be useful to explain our reasoning process with regards to what formats we support in the DS.

Linn believes unnecessary format proliferation is detrimental to wider adoption of Studio Master music. We do not believe that DSD provides any audio benefit compared to PCM. Further, it innately prevents the use of DSP.

However, despite these downsides, we also strongly believe that the DS should support all formats that are both open and widely used.

Whilst DSD is relatively uncommon in the UK and Europe, its has become more prevalent in other markets.

Because of this, we designed the Katalyst DAC architecture to ensure it could support DSD. To properly support DSD, there were also significant software changes required in the audio pipeline.

We have recently completed these changes and expect them to be available in a software update in December. They will allow support for DSD in all Katalyst based Klimax DS and Klimax DSM.

To be clear, we are not endorsing or encouraging the use of DSD. However, given the prevalence of DSD music in certain markets has increased, we recognise the importance of Linn owners being able to easily play DSD files at the best quality and feature set allowed for by that format.

I think this is a very pragmatic approach and shows Linn's willingness to accommodate certain demands from certain folk (and Roon probably falls into the same category).
I presume the market yo are talking about is the far east? Or is it US? Just curious Wink

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2017-12-01, 18:30 (This post was last modified: 2017-12-01 18:38 by dubselect.)
Post: #36
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 18:00)Keith Robertson Wrote:  Because of this, we designed the Katalyst DAC architecture to ensure it could support DSD. To properly support DSD, there were also significant software changes required in the audio pipeline.

We have recently completed these changes and expect them to be available in a software update in December. They will allow support for DSD in all Katalyst based Klimax DS and Klimax DSM.
Thanks a lot for the explanation.

I have just one question. Do these "significant software changes ... in the audio pipeline" affected the soundquality of PCM recordings played by Kat DS/DSM? Did you have to compromise on PCM recordings SQ in favour of DSD support?

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2017-12-01, 20:32 (This post was last modified: 2017-12-02 01:15 by Simon Chisholm.)
Post: #37
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 18:30)dubselect Wrote:  I have just one question. Do these "significant software changes ... in the audio pipeline" affected the soundquality of PCM recordings played by Kat DS/DSM? Did you have to compromise on PCM recordings SQ in favour of DSD support?

There are no changes to PCM audio. We required new code to support DSD but did not make any changes and certainly made no compromises to our PCM support.
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2017-12-01, 23:43
Post: #38
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-01 20:32)Simon Chisholm Wrote:  There are no changes to PCM audio. We required new code to support DSD but did not make any changes or certainly made no compromises to our PCM support.

Phew! Smile

Thanks, Simon.

David

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2017-12-02, 12:12
Post: #39
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
What a good morning news !
dsd probably belongs to a niche market, but doesn’t high level dacs as well ?
I think dsd support really adds a huge value to the kdsm : I do look a it differently now , thank you ! Smile

Are you planning to add dxd support as well in a near futur ? Cool
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2017-12-02, 12:37 (This post was last modified: 2017-12-02 12:38 by DavidHB.)
Post: #40
RE: Davaar Beta 60.192 DSD Katalyst
(2017-12-02 12:12)fred Wrote:  I think dsd support really adds a huge value to the kdsm : I do look a it differently now , thank you ! Smile

Yes, if you are prepared to forego the benefits of Space Optimisation on a KDSM in order to play DSD when the alternatives of transcoding and conversion are available, you probably are looking at the issue somewhat differently to most of us on the forum.Smile But one of the joys of life is that we are all different ...

David

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